Phil Kirkeiner

And literally, in one day, you fired the entire sales team. We decided, Cody and I made the hard decision, we're like, "Okay, uh we need to we need to start over." So, we let go of the sales team. He and I took all the demos from there. We cut all advertising. And then we actually had more sales. How many employees does Baton have right now? Uh we have four in the US and then 50 abroad, in the Philippines. We have two sales reps who are in the Philippines, they're just killing it. So, that first year with me and Cody, uh we did about 150k in revenue. So, really not much, but still something. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's I mean Yeah. Super proud of like, "Wow, six figures, yes." You know, really like it. And this just took off like wildfire. I mean, first year after getting a little bit of capital, you go from 100 to 7-800k, whatever. And then, the next year? Next year we hit 2 and 1/2 million. Uh the year after that was four, and um You're on your way now, too. We're trending towards seven right now, this year. So. Great job. Welcome back to the Startup Ignition podcast. Thank you so much for watching. We go over everything from A to Z with startups here, from idea all the way to exit. We're so excited for all the momentum that's been building behind the podcast. We're your father-son duo here, John and Tyler Richards, the founders of Startup Ignition. But today, we are joined by an awesome guest, Phil Kirkhamer, who is the CEO of Baton. Is it Baton? Baton Leads? The official name? Baton Leads is the official name, but we go by Baton, yeah. Okay. But today, I have a little bio for you. And so, Phil, you and John go all the way back to university classes, where you were actually a student of John's, right? That's correct. where you met him for the first time, right? Yeah, well, he was actually uh yeah, involved I took his classes, and he was also in the the Bishopric of our BYU freshman LDS ward. Oh, that's hilarious. That's hilarious. And then, for me, I don't know, was it through Startup Ignition and coming through the boot camp, or how did we first met? I can't even remember. right to me. I think I met you that first time I did Startup Ignition. Yeah, so so, Phil is currently the CEO We'll go over that history. and founder of a company called Baton that is executing in the home services and almost more specifically the pest control industry, doing a referral platform to exchange referrals back and forth between the industry. Super excited. We're going to get into the history and everything, and it's going to be super fun to go over this history. It's one of our portfolio companies in Startup Ignition Ventures. And there's just such a really interesting history that I'm excited to go over. Yeah, and you started your career after college and after going through some of John's classes and graduating, you started your career at Deloitte. I remember you talking about that. it did an internship at Deloitte, but you kind of quickly realized like entrepreneurship was kind of your thing. Or where did you go after Deloitte? Yeah, well, actually even before doing an accounting internship with Deloitte, I got into BYU on a music scholarship to play drums. That's what I thought I was going to do. I was I was all into the marching band stuff and drumline. Even freshman year at BYU, when I was taking John's classes, I was I was teaching the drumline at Maple Mountain High School after class meetings. And it was it was an absolute blast. I wish I could get back more into it, but I had a I had a a breakdown shortly after starting that year. I was like, "Oh, no, I don't think I can make money as a musician." Yeah, so So, I was like, "Oh, the accountants, they they they know about money." Yeah. Uh so, I come to my internships, I find like, "Oh, they just count the money, they don't make it." And then I was like, "Oh, the sales people, they make the money." So, I did summer sales uh for a few summers, and I was like, "Well, this actually I I really don't enjoy knocking doors, even though it was making it was paying the bills." And it was at that point where I was like, "You know what? I think I'm pretty committed to finding my own opportunity and um so, I went to work at Green X, where I'd I'd done summer sales before in in their corporate. And that's kind of where I stumbled on the idea for Baton. I was like, "Man, like almost half the calls we get were for stuff we didn't do." Yeah. Like, Green X didn't do bed bugs or termites or wildlife removal or anything. like you had Not to cut you off, but I feel like you had the entrepreneurial bug way before even starting Baton. You know what I mean? Like, weren't you in entrepreneurial classes and and and the ecosystem like even through university and everything, too? Yeah, um yeah, when I was in a senior in high school, I had an internship with a local entrepreneur in Indianapolis before I came out to BYU, and he got his he got a degree in accounting and then started different businesses like the real estate space and whatnot, and so, that's when I was like, you know, I I think I want to start my own business, you can be creative and uh and potentially make a lot of money as well. So, yeah, that's when I started taking John's lecture series that first year, and it was really cool. Like, that that was really inspirational. And that kind of entrepreneurial spirit and hustle and drive kind of led you into where we are today, which is an you an investment with Startup Ignition Ventures. We've invested in your company. Twice. Uh twice now, yep. And Baton has facilitated millions in referral volume and is targeting a pretty high, you know, revenue line this year, which I don't know if we're able to talk about on the podcast or not, but also, you know, the company also got Startup of the Year from Silicon Slopes a year or two back. Um And you just continue to be in the grind. Like, it's it's awesome to see, again, that kind of career-focused or just figuring out your path all the way to always having the entrepreneurial bug and like actually executing, finding a problem, getting a solution, and then building value out of it, right? That's fun. Yeah. Okay, before we get into all of that though, cuz I want to go all the way back to when you met my dad. But before we get into your deep deep deep deep history here, I'm going to do a quick icebreaker for the podcast. If you've ever seen one of our episodes, we always do an icebreaker with the guest, just to kind of get into the podcast mood, and it's really lighthearted and fun. We're going to do it for like 5 minutes, okay? All right, I like having fun. Okay, and this one is a rapid-fire this or that, okay? Okay, so when I tell you two things, I want you to tell me which one you like more or worse, or or which one you like better, right? Okay. I'm I'm ready. Okay, energy drink or coffee? Energy drink. Early bird or night owl? Early bird. Equity or salary? Equity. Equity. String cheese or protein bar? String cheese. Really? Mhm. Okay. Work from home or work from office? Office. Office. I like it. Summer or winter? Summer, big time. Musk or Bezos? Musk. Uh stealth mode or public launch? Public launch. Um city life or country life? Oh, um city life. Really? Yeah. I guess you did move from Seattle. You guys were up in Seattle for a little bit. Did you like your time in Seattle? Uh we loved our time in Seattle, and sometimes we dream of like, "Oh, let's just go move out and uh you know, get a bunch of land somewhere." And we do want to buy it like land and have a a house someday. Like a countryside land? But I don't know if I was wanting to be like all rural. Yeah. You know, I I don't know, I guess I'm too um hyperactive to have that much peace in my life. have to be close to a Costco. Yeah, I think that and then yeah, and a major airport. you can only go so far. Okay, last one of this or that, and then we'll get into the real segment here. So, bootstrap or venture-backed? Bootstrap. Bootstrap. Yeah, yeah. Why bootstrap? Um I I just think it forces you to be more creative and resourceful, you know? And then it's um we haven't raised a lot of money, right? And you guys have always encouraged us to be really resourceful. And I think it's made us much better Yeah. to do that way. I mean, um but I I don't know, I think maybe if the next business may maybe it would be wise to raise money up front to like speed things along. Maybe I won't have the same patience to be on the ground floor, you know, doing so much hustle right away. But I don't know, I really liked going the first few years without paying myself, because it like, you know, you just get really close to the customer. Yeah. I liked it. I don't You you forced yourself to find the real product-market fit, and yeah. Yeah, it forces like a it's every day is an exercise in prioritization. You know, you can only if you don't have any money, like you have to focus on the one important thing. But if you raise a bunch of money, then you're under all this pressure to spend it on whatever you can spend it on, you know? Cool. So, yeah. I like it. I agree, actually. So, thank you for participating in my rapid-fire this or that, real quick. I thought you were going to ask harder questions. no, it's lighthearted. I hope you weren't sweating too much. I was going to get like real personal or something. What's the last thing you've done in your relationship? You know. Um okay, so let's go back to that freshman year, or whenever you met John, cuz John was a professor at BYU for 12 years in the entrepreneurship program, and you met him there. Legend. When you how did you meet Phil? How do you remember meeting Phil? Well, he was in uh for those outside the area, uh Brigham Young University is uh the LDS or Mormon church uh sponsored, and I was in ecclesiastical leader in the congregation. Uh students come in there, and they're all part of a certain congregation, and he happened to be in that. We call them wards, and he happened to be in the ward. And uh I got to know him, and literally, this is I've I've told the story a lot of times to a lot of people about Phil. Phil instantly, I recognized he was just whip smart. And I say that word about very few people. He just literally really intelligent and really um but very teachable. So, that means, you know, that's a humility where he'll listen to mentors and take advice, and he'll think about things, and he has his own opinions, but he will listen to been-there-done-that people that have had more experience. And he'll do the best of his own ingenuity combined with advice from mentors and I noticed that really early on and I even said to myself because I was an active angel investor and very involved in the venture ecosystem at the time just as I am now and I said someday this young guy is going to do something and I want to invest in it or be a part of it and I said that to myself and then and we can tell more about that first year and your feelings and you met me and I think you did you seek out purposely to be in a class where I was involved with or not I can't remember You might have yeah I don't know if it was promoted in the ward or something but yeah I mean What I did what what did you cuz I probably talked about my experiences there what did you major in I studied accounting Okay but right away or when did you decide accounting in your freshman year I decided accounting freshman year Okay Yeah So then you were in the business school so then you heard about these lecture series entrepreneurship lecture series of which I was running and all that so that's when you came into that did you take any of my other classes or just that one I did the the one credit lecture series and then there was a the creating new ventures one oh you went up to that actually too so that's you know like often a major in entrepreneurship takes that so that's where I thought I want to touch on that attribute of Phil that you just touched on you kind of glazed over it but I feel like it's one of his like Phil's superpowers which is like being very teachable but also very smart right now a lot of smart people don't take you know feedback or criticism or even kind of correction very well or Phil is like you know he's smart and he knows he's smart and he's very smart in everything in the decisions he's making You guys are a little too you saying smart too much Listen listen here's one of the problems with entrepreneurship and from our perspective and from from a mentor investor such as I've been for decades so you run into an entrepreneur and there's lots of entrepreneurs that act pretend like they want advice and they they they they but really they're just doing it because they just want to get money Uh-huh Okay and that is very the people that do that do not realize how transparent that is and how you can see that instantly can read right through that And and they don't understand that and you were you're not that way and that's what we mean that you could bootstrap completely a company and I believe you could pull it off fully bootstrapping but strategically got money and and that type of thing so that's But the best founders aren't the ones who have all the answers the best founders are the ones that are you know seeking feedback and staying humble and adapting fast to that feedback and changing the path that they're on to the correct path or to the mentored path or to the advised path right and I feel like that's what's They're super strong on their own but they go to the next level because they're really good at assimilating advice VCs and other people around smart founders don't expect the founders to have all the answers but to find those answers and to complete it at the end of the day right so it's like I think you know portraying like you have all the answers actually does the exact opposite it makes everybody feel inconfident in you right so Anyway so that's what I think is going to come out when you see the business idea and then model that was developed here but let's go so anyway so he's a freshman um and he takes um and he takes my lecture series class which is where we have 13 entrepreneurs come and visit the class during a semester then he takes my creating new ventures class a pretty hardcore entrepreneurship class Yeah and he's in that and he's an accounting major doing that In that class you're supposed to create a new venture you're supposed to create an idea and you learn the ideas that's what did you do and basically is the the curriculum for that gave later in life gave birth to start of ignition Yes but so what what what did you what was your idea I'm just curious At that time and that was probably my junior it's probably my third or fourth year at BYU and I and I did five years cuz I did the master's program You can't take that class to your junior or senior year yeah Yeah um It's a 400 level class It was it was a blast so so I took my business everybankbonus.com into that class so the first you know technical business I started was was a was a content website where we aggregated all of the different uh bank account promotions that you could you know sign up for a different bank account or checking or savings account these different banks and we we aggregated them and categorized them based on what state you live in or what state you have to live in to open the account what the bonus amount is um and then the different requirements to get that that sign up bonus and um you know I when I had that a an accounting internship before Deloitte I had some co-workers who were like really into this game called churning is like oh you churn through bank accounts and credit cards to get the points and rewards and whatnot so um there's like all this manual research that we had to do and such so so me and my buddies um we we created this website and consolidated all of the offers and you know made something we thought was really cool and we were opening ourselves a dozen bank accounts a year to get a few thousand bucks for like travel money and and whatever so so in the creating your venture class I I was really interested in how do you how could I grow this and um and and that's why I took the class for was was that website and and since we sold it and I'm focused all in on baton but that was a blast yeah but that company went somewhere and you did some good things with it which is really interesting and that's one you had in that class which was really great then but the funny thing is is I kept thinking to myself and knowing Phil cuz so I knew Phil from this kind of personal church side and then knew Phil as a student and he was the consummate student and there's not a high percentage of students I feel this way about but example of a student where I said this guy's got to just go straight into entrepreneurship and then he didn't and he disappointed me He he he literally finished his accounting degree and became an accountant for one of the big four What was your what was your thought process there cuz I think a lot of people go through that I went through that I remember graduating being like am I making the right choice of going to my own own startup rather than going to a Deloitte or one of the big banks or to a steady Freddy type job that can provide decent income after graduating after spending money on that degree and you know making that degree worth it like what was your thought process I'm I'm curious of what went through your mind at that decision-making point Man well you know toward when I was graduating I was interested in some level of stability because you know I was recently married you know my before my last year of the Mac you know I was married and needed to you know pay for my last year of tuition it was it was graduate tuition so it was Yeah so Mac is short for master of accounting so you were a master student so you spent five years Oh you got your master's I didn't know that Yes so it was education's important my family my mom was a teacher so this is like you know what I'll get my master's since I'm here make her proud Yeah um and so yeah I I needed money for that tuition and then my wife was still going to school at the time as well and I just thought you know what like I do want to start my own thing but I just didn't have anything I felt was um really strong enough or compelling and we still had everybankbonus.com at the time but that was only cash flowing a few K a month and I just split it with my buddies who had built the site with me and so it just I went to work um I did a an accounting internship with Deloitte which was during the busy season winter busy season it was awful but um and I was actually the only intern in the whole group that did not get a return offer because it was so clear I wasn't like you know suited to be an accountant or whatever but um but then uh after I graduated I went to work as a financial analyst at the pest control company I done summer sales for during school and it was at that point where I really started to get you know more insight into the pest control business and you know I was working there I was making you know just a regular decent salary for a finance grad or whatever and it was there where I stumbled on the idea for baton and it was like you know oh it would be great if we could find something to do with all of these leads we get that we can't do anything with cuz Green X didn't do How were you involved in leads if you were what were you doing for Green X though so you interned at Deloitte you figured out no big four accounting life's not for me and you go take a corporate job at Green X and what did you do Um I was the the financial analyst so I just prepared any report they needed me to do so anything for the sales team for the client success team a lot of time in Excel Yeah a lot of time in Excel and that's I mean the accounting degree came in handy there and I was actually really lucky to I mean we were probably understaffed for how fast we were growing so I was in a lot of the leadership meetings every week where they review the scorecard and make lots of critical decisions about the business super eye-opening to see how like a fast-growth company could just make things happen Green X is an awesome company and all I all leaders there have major respect for so um anyway when we were there it was like man so many of these leads we get we can't do anything with like what if there's some way I could build a platform to help pass these leads to So you got insight into that side of the business being the an analyst Yes Okay Yep um exactly so um and then because I built everybankbonus.com with my friends I kind of knew what it took to build a database oriented site So wait are you were you technical or are you technical or what what's the story there Um I don't I don't know how technical I mean you could you could ask my buddies who we built that site with or my CTO now how technical I am like I don't think I'm that technical but I've just heard people use enough of the words that I feel like I can, you know, under I can I can sound convincing I suppose, but to get the prototype for Baton off the ground, I didn't want to have to lean on my friends to build it for me with custom code cuz it just like every bank bonus was great, but it just took so long to build the prototype. at Green X right now, just describe it. What's the problem description that you discovered at Green X that led to Baton? The problem was that um, you know, uh, Green X is a pest control company, you know, they want more pest control customers, so they spend a lot of money on paper click ads, on, you know, lead aggregators, on the branding and all this kind of stuff to generate calls from consumers for pest control, but consumers think of pest control as anything that has to do with pests. So, even wildlife and bed bugs and termites and other stuff. But, Green X only would do general residential pest control, very specific type, and some rodent and misc. Like spiders and roaches and stuff like that. Exactly. So, it ended up being almost it only in single family homes as well. They wouldn't do condos or town homes or or even businesses or anything like that. So, a large portion of the leads they'd get were for stuff they didn't do. And in in additionally, there was consumers that had a need, but they couldn't fulfill it. Exactly. Yep. And then there was also a pain in that um, you know, these door-to-door companies would spend so much money on sales reps to get new accounts, but then if those customers moved to another state or area where they don't service, they can't keep that customer, right? So, it's like everywhere it just seems like there's all these high intent customers coming in, but we can't do anything with them. So, it's really frustrating. So, I thought, man, I wonder if there's some way I could build a platform to help connect these callers to other companies and they're all paying each other for leads. problem statement is pest control companies spend a huge amount of their resources on filling their funnel with leads and opportunities, but a huge percentage of the leads that come into that funnel, they can't service, and they're just dead leads, and end up being dead money. Exactly. Yep. So, um, the solution was, hey, let's build a let's build a platform with an easy way for these companies to redirect those callers to companies who want those leads. Yeah, like a marketplace. Exactly. Yeah. So, so, so in other words, instead of it being a dead lead and their lead acquisition costs down the drain, they could recoup some of the lead acquisition costs or maybe even make money by instead selling that lead to somebody else. Exactly. But, they're not going to devise and set up their own system to do it. You said you might be a your a solution is you're going to be a middle man for that. Exactly. It was It was a problem for for a lot of these companies where it's not a big enough problem to invest resources like, you know, Green X is in a dozen states, right? Like to for them to find a bed bug person and a wildlife person and another And to manage all that, yeah. Yeah, I mean, and and like granted, you know, now with Baton, they do make tens of thousand of dollars a month, you know, recouping some of their marketing costs, but I mean, they're they're worried about growing their top line by millions every year. They're not worried about, you know, recouping tens of thousands of dollars a month. Like it's it's totally different. So, um, so that's where the the concept kind of came through and and there was a lot to figure out. I mean, it sounded so easy at the beginning. I didn't realize you had such strong like founder market fit, right? That you weren't just building a startup that came an idea that came into your head, you were literally solving a problem that you experienced almost hard to be as successful as Phil has been though without founder market fit like that. Yeah. So, it makes sense. Well, that's what I'm saying. I think I think that You're discovering that he has founder market fit. Well, I'm saying that is a correlation between a lot of success is that you're, you know, your insight into the industry perfectly aligned with the product that you were building, right? Like you literally experienced the pain, and I think investors really love that, right? For founders that have founder market fit, when a VC sees that, it's really attractive because it's not like you're just solving an unknown problem, you're solving a problem that you've literally first hand experienced, and it's almost an unfair advantage, right? Yeah. To your startup because you're starting not having to go out and do all this research or gather all this data and understand the problem, you know the problem, so you can almost skip ahead in comparison to other startups or founders when you have founder market fit. it, yeah. Somebody not even working at a pest control company or those type of home services companies wouldn't even be aware of this problem. Totally. Yeah, they wouldn't. And going along with founder market fit, I would say that my my past experience with Every Bank Bonus was was also a great fit for me because I learned how to build websites, and I even built the prototype for Baton using no code software. Oh, what did you use? Um, I used a platform called Mac. So, it was like, man, here's an opportunity where I feel like, you know, I I understand the industry well enough, and I can spin up a prototype for next to nothing. Yeah. And there's, you know, I knew what conferences to go to, so I went to to see if people were actually interested in this that that first year, I guess in in 2019, I I bought a ticket to PestWorld in San Diego, and I you know, just bought a t-shirt, put Baton on it, and you know, I hadn't incorporated or or anything yet. I just walked around. I was like, hey, um, have you heard of Baton yet? Like, oh, no, no, where's your booth? Have you heard of Baton yet? No one's heard of Baton. Oh, yeah, our booth is over there. So, anyway, what we're doing is this that So, um, was that before or after you contacted me again? After you graduated and went to Green X, at some point you contacted me and came down and visited me here in Utah. Yeah, and then yeah, exactly. I think it was after. And then You did that after that. Yeah, and Okay, so let's talk about that next step then. Okay, or what do you want Were you going to say something now? But, I mean, in to for the chronology is you go off and become an accountant. Uh-huh. Okay. Tried big four, didn't like it, then you go to Green X and you're basically an accountant analyst. And then at some point you contacted me and said, Professor Richards or whatever you called me at the time, that I want to come meet with you Uh-huh. and talk to you, and we went to Waffle Love. Yeah, very sugary waffles. Yes. And we sat, and you you were trying to decide do I keep my day job and just be an accountant or do I actually go into this business? Yeah, I think it was after. And Wait, the you going to PestWorld was after? I think that I I met with John after PestWorld. Okay, cuz you had that that validation already. You kind of like I I I assume PestWorld was validating. But, when you came to me, you were trying to decide do I do this or stay in my steady Freddy job? Yes. So, it sounds like it was after because after PestWorld, I was still at Green X for another 5 months or so before it at uh, in April 2020, we moved to Seattle, and at that point I I quit full time with them, and and I was mostly full time on And I met with you at Waffle Love, and I go, holy mackerel, this he he should have been an entrepreneur all along. I said, this is And I What did I say? I said, do the business. Yeah. So, Phil, let me like iron this out just a little bit. So, you had the idea of Baton. You wrote code or or went to PestWorld first? What What did you do first? Um, so before PestWorld, the summer before PestWorld, my wife went on a study abroad for a few months when she was still in school. So, I had a few months, and the idea was kind of like tinkering in my head. Percolating, yeah. Yeah, cuz I was like seeing it So, I just kind of learned the no code platforms like, oh, you know, I built like an idea for this and just other random stuff to see if I could learn how the no code stuff worked. And then by the time PestWorld had come around, I had a very good understanding of how I would build the platform based on more feedback that I would get from from people. So, you'd also been talking to the market and customers prior to PestWorld, and you took the leap to go to PestWorld because you had that small validation from the few people you talked to, and you're like, okay, I cannot not go find out more about this and execute on this, right? Yes. Yeah, it's like and I think it was fun, the no code stuff. I mean, I sometimes I think I should have studied information systems just cuz I like to, you know, be creative and build things, right? But, um, Which would have been like a combo accounting and CS degree. Yeah. Sort of, yeah. So, um, but yeah, so it was I think it was all just kind of natural progression, and then, you know, I got my confidence up in a little bit cuz entrepreneurship for the longest time, and maybe some of the the the people who want to be entrepreneurs who listen to this, sometimes it seems like, oh, I want to start my own business, but it's like this this cloud or like this thing that's just like seems so abstract, you know, start a business. do it, yeah. entrepreneur, right? And then so, I I think part of it was I I didn't really have the confidence to just jump in, and it was just like taking baby steps. Like, oh, I wonder if I could do this. Like, how would this work? And then over, you know, just over time throughout that whole year of 2019 and into the 2020, it was like me me understanding more the problem, me recognizing like, oh, you can just talk to people and like pitch your idea or wait a minute, I don't actually need a whole like like fleshed out project that's complete or a whole prototype to to get feedback from stuff, and you know, talking to John and and such, too, it's just like, man, this is actually pretty straightforward. So, it's like this thing that's just like seems so abstract. okay, when did you write lines of code versus when did you actually validate this thing? Because there's a huge movement right now in with AI and the ease of building product that there's influencers and business people out there and startup advisors and mentors that are saying, no, now instead of validating that there's a problem solution and and trying to get to product market fit, you should go and just build it out with AI and all the resources that AI can give to you prior to even knowing that there's a problem or solution or product market fit. Interesting. And I I was just wondering back, you know, in 2020 or whenever this year was, this timeline was, were you doing that? Were you building and then validating or were you validating and building or were you validating and then building, right? Yeah, so I guess I would say, um, you know, the the validation I did before um, before PestWorld was more so just like is this even something I could build? It wasn't like I want to build it all. Okay, so you weren't like actively building product prior to really having that feeling inside of like okay, this this is I'm going the right direction. You had that steps of validation prior to building. Yeah, it was like can I do this business without getting a CTO or something? It was like and then I was like you know, I think I could figure this out. I'm going to go to Pestworld and get more insight now to see if people actually want to buy into the concept. Once I got a few dozen business cards on that first day, I understood like okay, there's something real here. And then I remember taking Startup Ignition and it was after that it was after Pestworld that point you came to our boot camp. Yeah, when when did you come to the Startup Ignition boot camp then? When did you come through that? I wish I knew the specific meeting with me? Yeah. And then either a little before after that you were Pestworld and all that and then you you felt you needed we talked about how you had taken my class, right? Yeah, yeah. But you needed a much more full dose of Lean Startup. Well, that that comment you made of like hey, when you want to start a business there's like this cloud of unknown that you just don't know where to go or what to do and I feel like that's what the boot camp tries to accomplish is like hey, what to do and what not to do in starting your business. Absolutely. Starting your startup and so that's why I felt I feel like in your case, you know, in most people's cases coming through the boot camp kind of helps you like wrap your mind around the idea of okay, where am I going? What am I doing? How do I accomplish But you came with your co-founder Cody. The second time I did it. Second time. First time was by yourself. So you didn't have Cody yet. I did not have Cody until about the first time it was you and you came to Startup Ignition. Was it helpful? It was absolutely helpful. I feel like it it dispelled so many uncertainties or doubts in my mind. you're talking about. Gosh, I felt like I had such a clear road map at that point. Like okay, well first off, don't get a co-founder that's 50/50, right? Something like that. Or like and don't get a don't get a technical co-founder for as long as you can so that you don't have to like you know, depend on do do as much validation as possible. Get customers and everything before you invest all this money in product, yeah. And like how to incorporate even like the Delaware C Corp thing and then the the small qualified small business stock exemption and all this stuff. Things This is an example what I mean, Tyler. So Phil is very competent. But he literally then trusted advisor went in, followed the steps, didn't skip steps, which a lot of most successful alumni of Startup Ignition say to the people that are going through it, don't skip steps. Yes. And because Yes. And so there cuz we have a very defined way to go and a curriculum and a methodology. It's like Lean Startup on steroids in a certain path and that's the ones that don't skip steps are the ones that do what you did or what this other fellow named Destin Robbins. He's running around all the time super successful Awesome. Good guy. he tells everybody don't skip steps. And so so you went after the first time and you just went and made it happen. Yeah. Yeah. When and then at some point Cody came into the picture and you realized it's a scalable venture cuz one of our core teachers is you can't do a scalable venture by yourself. Nope. Yeah, no lone wolves. And you and you can't so you did come through the boot camp with the idea of Baton in your head and like I want to execute after our meeting Yeah. that we had and then you came to came to Startup Ignition then you got Yeah, tell us about Cody coming in and Yeah, how did you meet Cody? What what how does Cody come in the picture? Um So before Cody joined as a co-founder, we were already close friends. I love Cody to death. He's one of the the the people in my life I feel like he's the best I know at making authentic genuine connections with people. He's just such an awesome people person. Down down to his core, he's such a good guy. Yeah. And he brings people together. He's always reaching out. So before Startup Ignition, we had met originally when he took a volleyball class with my wife Hannah at BYU. And in then he's then after during that class, he put together a pickup volleyball group out of that class that he organized and you know, found the courts and brought everyone around. It's just like he knows how to bring people together. Yeah, he's an organizer. He's a community builder, yeah. Yeah, and I could I feel like I could just trust him from the second I met him and then shortly after that, you know, we started going on trips like every year we'd go to Oceanside, California and just like you know, longboard along the beach or whatever and he was always down to travel. He was just down to take risks and and just to do things So you were just friends. Any pest control industry experience? Uh at that time, no. Um Well, actually sort of. He he sold for Green X for like a few weeks in one of the summers cuz he had done Vivint before and then was doing other sales some insight you're going to get from that, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so by the time 20 early 2021 came around, I knew I needed some help because I was doing all the product stuff with our first you know, 20 customers or something that I had gotten. I'd built the no-code platform and um you know, I wanted to keep selling but I didn't want to lose momentum on the sales side anytime I needed to focus on the product or business model or or something else, right? So um you know, I thought of Cody as like you know, he just seems like the kind of guy he'd be so good going to trade shows cuz I knew that was going to be an important channel for going there. It was like I know that he's going to be able to make uh connections and friends and like bring people in. I know he hustles, you know, he works really hard at at sales and all this stuff and uh I could just trust him to be proactive and maybe he'd even be able to come in and you know, be like a true co-founder. He wouldn't need a salary right away. You know, it's important it's hard to find sometimes especially people with kids. So so I presented the idea to him working with us with us. It was just me at the time, right? But um Hannah Hannah my wife laughs cuz I'd be on sales calls and be like oh yeah, we here at Baton are all about blah blah blah blah and it's just you know, Phil at the kitchen table is Baton at the time but But anyway So you got To give people a little bit of a picture, how many employees does Baton have right now? Uh we have four in the US and then 50 abroad in the Philippines and Where else? So we'll talk we're going to talk about that later how he's how he's doing things. Okay, so so then Cody you joined you. Yeah, Cody joins. He goes 6 months with no pay, you know, just total for a while. And then he joins and we go through Startup Ignition together. You know, so we're on the same page and we have the same goals. Before he started, I made that a condition. I was like we have to go through Startup Ignition together. Okay. Super smart move. That's great. Part of our program is when co-founders go through together, it's 1 + 1 = 3 magic happens and so you guys got on the same page with how you're going to execute your startup and that's really important and then he learned the principles as well and you guys then and then he joined you and Yes. You know, you keep calling me teachable and all that. I was like Cody is also very teachable. Oh yeah, for sure. He he takes the the the feedback from mentors and people that are trying to help him very seriously and internalizes them and and it's just I guess it's part of why I feel like I can trust him. He's just such a No, we've been impressed by your partnership and how you guys have done. always seeking that out too. Like Cody's constantly pinging and like asking and you know, We're going to get Cody on here. You guys will come back in a little while and we'll get him back on here. We love you, Cody. It'll be more fun with him, I promise. Yeah. So that's awesome. So okay, so then you do Startup the second time and you had a little bit of revenue. Mhm. Okay. And you're going bit, yes. Yeah. From from you going through Startup Ignition the second time then you thought about maybe you'd get a little little bit of money. Yeah. So that first year I brought in Cody, we did about 150k in revenue. So really not much but still something. Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. It was I mean yeah, super proud of like wow, six figures, yes, you know. Um and then going into that following year, we you know, approached you guys Yeah. and my uncle as well is like hey, you know, we want to you know, have money to hire an employee if we want to, you know, or just have a little bit of a cushion cuz we still need to pay ourselves and it wasn't making that that much. You know, we'd gone at that point I'd gone a few years without it and then Cody had gone 6 months since we started paying him but you know, needed needed needed money. It's a very seasonal business, too. You know, in the winter, you know, the referral volume goes down cuz there's not as much pest control demand. We just needed a the cushion and wanted to grow. So yeah, we raised 150k in that first round and that was awesome. Yeah, that's us and your uncle. Us and yeah, you guys and my uncle, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I remember that. I remember I I remember you guys had about 150k revenue at that time which what was that? 2021 or two? Uh I think that was 2022. Yeah, I think it was two. Yeah. Uh 2023 was um No sorry, let me back up. 2021 was 150k. 2022 was um 850k or something like that. You you took our 100,000 um and I guess 150 with your uncle's money and you parlayed that in 1 year into about a 7 8x increase about 6 7 in x increase in revenue which we were super impressed with. Thank yeah, we were too. We were like yeah, I was surprised honestly but Yeah. And so and let's let's now that we're talking like that before we go further on the chronology of these events, let's really focus on the business model. What is the business model? So the idea is being the middleman on these referrals but literally like take us through a use case like what your customers experience on both sides cuz you're kind of like a marketplace, right? Explain it to the audience here just exactly what you do. So Baton is a platform for companies to refer and get leads to and from each other. So if if a pest control company is getting calls for services they don't provide or calls outside of their area or whatever, they can use Baton to pass that call on to another company and get paid for it. So, how it works is companies can sign up, you know, create their free profile. They say, "Hey, you know, here's the services I offer. Here's the zip codes I offer those services in." And they can even segment it to that maybe they're like, "Hey, in Jacksonville for termites, we want to pay 80 bucks. But then for, you know, bedbugs, we only want to pay 60 bucks per lead." It's etc. They can create all these different buckets to like target the leads they want. So, um whatever a company is paying for the lead that you send them, Baton keeps 50% of that. And then the other 50% support credited to the company who sent the lead. Yeah. And then, um when a company signs up, it's free to sign up, but we ask that you load your balance or your your wallets on your account with two or 500 or $1,000, however much volume, depending on however much volume you think you're going to do. And then any leads you get draws that wallet balance down. Any credits you earn brings it back up. Mhm. And then every month you can, um if you accrue extra credits, you can actually cash that out. So, we have dozens of companies Kind of like a Venmo account. Yeah. So, we're paying dozens of companies every month for the leads, even though they're also getting leads. Right. And you know, uh we talk a lot about the the value prop of like, "Oh, monetize your non-qualified leads." But I would say most companies are most interested in getting the exclusive, highly qualified referrals from the companies to them. Yeah. So, I mean, that I mean, everyone wants more leads, right? Everyone Like getting a company to sign up to get leads is way easier than, you know, having them adopt the process to forward their calls along and get them referred or whatever. But people love the leads because they come recommended by another provider. You know, um the caller is often still warm on the call and forwarded along to the the service company who can do the service that was requested. And um and oh, and it's a bonus that they can actually remonetize some of the leads they get but can't service. Yeah, yeah, but I I think I think there's two elements there. Obviously, they can make a little bit of money by just not saying no and hanging up the phone, right? Exactly, yep. Okay. But also, if they want to be a good business owner, they want to take care of people who call them. Yes. And they can be known as an answer. That person may in the future become a customer there's. Exactly. But right now they say, "We don't do that." Like for example, I've got raccoons in my attic. Right now you do? Or you don't? No, no, no. I'm not I'm giving you an example. Okay. I got an answer for you. right now there's a pest control company that does spiders and roaches, right? They get a call to remove a raccoon from an attic. Yep. "We don't do that." They could hang up and click and nothing happens, okay? Instead, they say, "You know what? We don't do that, but we can put you in touch with somebody that does." Yep. Exactly. That's a great service, right? And so, then what happens is they entered into your system and a critter control versus a pest control company picks up that lead, loves that lead, Yep. pays big money for that lead. Yep. You make money, they're making money, and the original pest control company is making money. So, it's you've created this incredible ecosystem. Yeah, thank you. It's a win-win-win for sure. Or I guess you could say win-win-win-win. The consumer wins, the referring company wins, Baton wins, and the company gets the lead It's it's really really good. And this just took off like wildfire. I mean, first year after getting a little bit of capital, you go from 100 to 7-800k, whatever. And then the next year? The next year we hit 2 and 1/2 million. Uh the year after that was four. And um You're on your way now, too. We're trending towards seven right now this year. So, Great job. To the viewers and listeners out here, this is incredible. This is not easy to do. And for all the talk in entrepreneurship, and you guys have kept most of the ownership of your company Yeah. in this process, which is what we teach and encourage. Yes, thank you. Okay. And it's amazing. When you presented at our last annual meeting, you were definitely the biggest buzz amongst the limited partner investors. Biggest buzz, no pun intended, huh? Exactly. That's awesome. Yeah. So, what do you attribute that to? Cuz like I know when you're small, it's pretty easy to experience some revenue multiples year over year, right? When you're going from 100,000 to 300,000 and 3x'ing, okay, yeah, great. Got it. Uh-huh. But like to continue that trajectory of what you're doing where you're trying to at least double almost every year on millions of dollars of revenue, like what are you keeping in mind? What what what do you what did you do to get that? What are you doing right now to still experience that? Like what how do you sum that up? That's that's a good question. Um you know, we've had some discussions with the team about how, you know, why are we growing so much? You know, cuz some companies, you know, they grow 10% and they celebrate it as a big deal. Cuz not to cut you off, but I remember you like two years ago saying, "I think we've tapped out in pest control." It's like, uh you should you're still growing. Yeah. Yes, I would yeah, saying that for a while. a lot more to go. Yeah, a lot more to go, yeah. Um so, I mean, I can think of a few things like I mean, there's there's tactics, right? Like, "Oh, we we did this or we focused on this or whatever." But I think the mindset or the vision aspect of it as a company is kind of why we've kept growing. I mean, I saw this at Green Earth. I I thought, "Why is it that Green Earth is doubling revenue year over year when all these other pest control and service companies struggle to get past, you know, one to three or five employees, you know?" And something I learned from watching them execute is just their vision. They just said, "We are going to grow a billion-dollar pest control company." And that like so every decision we make is framed around that. Yeah. You know, um and especially, you know, Matt Flanders, um he's a a trusted advisor as well. I really appreciate it. If you're listening to this, thanks, Matt. Um he's always emphasized like, "Why is your goal so small? You know, like why aren't why aren't you like pushing for more, you know? Um if I had set low small goals at Green Earth, we never would have, you know, grown to as big as we were." It's like, "You know what? You know, with that in mind, every year that we've set a goal, we've hit that goal. So, I think, you know, Time to push yourself, yeah. Yeah, it's like, "Well, in each year I get a little scared like how are we going to do this?" But because we're just committed to it, we figure it out, you know? And I think we do get lucky in a lot of ways. I think every entrepreneur gets lucky. Well, I think luck is part of luck is part of entrepreneurship, but again, luck is when opportunity meets that preparation, right? So, if you're not prepared to seize that opportunity, you're never going to get that opportunity or have that end achievement, right? Yes. Yeah, for sure. So, so I mean, what how did we keep growing 2x or not quite 2x or whatever it is each year is just like that's just what we say we're going to do and we figure it out. The the short answer, Yeah. I don't know how how in the weeds you want me to get about like the specific things people Well, I I there's definitely two before we end here and we've got still some time to go, but there's two major things that I think our listeners and viewers will really like to hear about. I'll make sure we cover that. But just generally, um you know, we're this pic it's amazing what you've accomplished. And I'm telling you, viewers and listeners, I we see thousands of startups and entrepreneurs. And Phil and what he's accomplished is a rare occurrence because he's just really good. And the idea was really good. They did the business model validation and development really well. And they've been very careful to follow lean principles. And his co-founder Cody is right there alongside of him. This is really and this is really important. And this is really important. And also, Phil has minimized dilution. And he he and Cody and the team are going to own a huge part of their very valuable company. This is a lot of great things. But it's obviously not been perfectly wine and roses all the time. No. Okay. There's still a lot of challenges and things that you've had to overcome. So, maybe what are a couple of, you know, people like to get their tips and learn from you here. So, there's going to be, you know, other peers to you meaning entrepreneurs starting companies, in the middle of doing companies. There's companies that have been around for five years and and aren't even at 200,000 revenue yet, right? let's ask him about those ups and downs cuz I do think we've highlighted, you know, it's been a highlight reel of Baton so far. feels good. Yeah, so what what what what's some of the downs? Yeah, what's Give us two or three of the most frustrating or challenging things you've had to overcome. Or just give us the number one. Give us the number one most frustrating hard time. The most frustrating hard time, wow. Um uh how do I I mean, in a business, you know, a lot of things happen at once. So, sometimes hard to be like, "What's the what's the I mean, there could be like a So, just go down two or three. Yeah, I'll I'll go through a few. So, my my whole life I feel like I've considered myself a a people pleaser. You know, I like to be liked. I don't like conflict. And you know, anytime there's conflict, I'd rather kind of, you know, avoid it or kind of appease people and whatnot. But as CEO, probably the the hardest personal challenge I've had at least as growing as Baton has grown is having to um make tough decisions, you know, and also make decisions that people don't always like, you know, hiring people, firing people. Um it's not that's not the fun stuff, you know, I really liked being on the ground and talking to customers and figuring thing out things out and building features they love and um and whatnot. But Is firing people one of the hardest things you've had to do? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've talked on other podcast episodes that I've shared my experience. I was terrible at it. I was a people pleaser. Halfway through my career I learned to do it right everything and handle these issues. And it's really important, but that firing people, that's that's a tough Tyler cried the first time he had to fire a major person. I cried. The woman cried I fired the first time. I mean, so it's hard, right? Well, it's cuz usually when you're firing, you're in some kind of cash crunch mode where it's like, "Man, I can't afford to have this high-paid person." So, usually you are getting rid of the highest paid and therefore the most executive or therefore the the closest to the founding team you almost are. Yeah. And so, it's not like you're firing a customer support rep who makes, you know, $5,000 a month. You're you're hiring you're firing your C-level person or that VP-level person. It's like, "I can't afford you. I'm sorry. I've worked with you for a year and a half and we've gotten really close, but I have to fire you, right?" So, So, small startup companies are also pressure cookers and you're it's very intimate, It is intimate, and so then when you have to do that. So, that's so no, but how have you overcome this tendency to be a people pleaser? Yeah. Um, well, at some point your back's just kind of against the wall and you have to do it, you know. Um, I can think of um, you know, shortly after was it the end of 2023? I can't remember what it was, but anyway, we're coming up on a slow season and we had hired um, several sales people were spending a lot of marketing, but um, you know, going into the slow season is becoming apparent that we either needed to raise money in the spring once we ran out of cash or we needed to make a correction, you know. So, we just you know, Cody and I had a lot of tough decisions like you know what, we can't afford to be spending this much money on marketing and advertising and even the sales reps just weren't producing as much as we needed them to. So, you know, but we really liked all of the people on the team, you know, we become close like you said, it's intimate, you know, sometimes when you start off as a startup too, you hire friends people you've known um, for a while. So, You have to be careful with that. Yeah. Yeah, so just a lot a lot of lessons learned going through this. So, but um, you know, just I would say that getting past those hard parts, you know, just leaning on Cody as a co-founder and talking through that stuff and like, hey, we're in this together. Yeah. make these tough decisions. That has been super helpful. So, you brought up one topic I want to make sure we cover. Yeah. Okay. You this happens a lot, so I want people to understand this in the process. So, you hired a local US-based sales team Mhm. and you got sales people in and you even and you still mentor and advise and consult with us a lot. Yeah. Okay. And you came and to me and talked about your issues and problems and literally in one day you fired the entire sales team. Pretty much. Is that pretty much what happened? Yeah. I mean, we we didn't just like say, hey, you're all fired, but Well, you know, you talk as much details you want, but just give a picture of how that happened and why that happened. Yeah. Um, you know, the the the formula we talk about in Startup Ignition is, you know, lifetime value of customer compared to cost of acquisition, right? Yeah. It's got to be three to five times more than the cost of acquisition to justify it, you know. And we're just looking at the numbers and it's like 6 months in with the sales team and we just love the guys. They're all so great and wonderful. Um, but the the sales they're producing, um, you know, many of them came from our own internal lead generation and then, you know, the close rate's super high. So, it's like there's not a lot of objections on the sales call. So, it's like, well, do I really need all three of these guys and they're not producing their own, but you know, just looking at the math like the math, you know, as I say nowadays, the math wasn't mathing, right? So, basically you were you had you had kind of high-paid account executives that you expect to go prospect and deliver and actually go out and find great deals and great revenue, Yeah. but you were handing them warm leads from your own lead generation programs and they were getting easy closes and you're paying them too much for that. Yeah. Yeah. Is that really it? yeah, it's like, well, like we're paying someone, you know, a base plus commission on this stuff, it's just not I mean, we might make money on their accounts eventually, you know, to to pay for themselves, but it's not going to be the three to five X. Cuz you could close these same leads with a lot lower paid person. Yes. So, we decided you Cody and I made the hard decision like, okay, you know, we need to we need to start over. So, we let go of the sales team. He and I took all of the demos from there. We cut all advertising and um, and then we actually had more sales, you know, cuz our our focus was we could generate more leads. We were uh, we had better cash flow. We like it's like overnight our 12-month projections was positive. important for our viewers and listeners to understand. The founders should be the selling team for as long as you can possibly make it happen until the founders can devise the systems for non-founders to come in and sell in the right way, the right type of accounts so that it's profitable and have a great ratio of lifetime value Yeah, that's what I was in the right in the right ratio. Yeah, yeah, right ratios, yep. So, this so what happens is founders will prematurely scale, prematurely hire too high-powered of a sales team and and prematurely pass off that responsibility. doesn't mean they're excellent, just means they're paid high, Uh-huh. okay? And they may not be good at selling your product at this time, okay? So, what happens is you burn a ton of cash with those sales people Yep. and they're not performing to your level and the founders usually react like this, these sales reps suck, okay? But reality, I'm going to be honest with you, the founder suck. Yes. Because the founder as well in this. It's the founder's problem because they prematurely did a scaling activity, hiring high-paid account executives before the company was ready to put them to work properly. Yeah, and it's so funny Yes, I 100% agree and it's so funny when when we were going through that decision is like, oh my gosh, we were told that you know, startups do this all the time. We thought we were so much smarter than all the other snowflake. I thought I was a special snowflake. I say about special snowflakes? Um, you stop fighting with them because it's not worth the time or something. All of us, Tyler and I have sometimes caught ourselves thinking we're special snowflakes as much as we know in operations, we can break a cardinal rule and still make it. No, it doesn't work for us either. Yeah. And if you break a cardinal rule, it's not going to work for you either. It doesn't work. Everyone thinks they're special. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's that's that's really I'm glad we got to cover that point. I'm glad we did, too. That was probably the hardest time. Um, and now like honestly since, you know, I feel so much better about what I'm doing now cuz we're profitable, you know, and you know, since we made that hard decision, it's like taking this huge edge off. Let's take one of the greatest stories in the state of Utah where we're all from, Uh-huh. Qualtrics. Do you think it was wine and roses to get to the greatest outcome any company's ever had in Utah? No, they were for years in a basement in dingy offices, couldn't sell their product for enough money, fired and went through tons of sales people. All this road is a tough road. This is entrepreneurship's not easy. It's not. But it's worth it. We do it because we thought it would be easy because it is easy. But are you having fun? Yeah, it's a lot of fun, especially now. I mean, love our team. Um, going to work is fun every single day. We've got the tight like leadership team. There's five of us plus everybody that's on the team, you know, especially in the Philippines and you know, Let's talk about that. The second I know we want to go through we want to hear some more tips. The second thing we want to bring out there because we talk about you all the time to others in this regard, you've done something really unique. You've taken the concept of VAs, virtual assistants, from countries like the Philippines Uh-huh. and some people get those to be like a executive assistant to the CEO in a startup maybe cuz they set their appointments, go through their email, do things like that. Some little things here and there, but you've literally taken this to another level that most people couldn't pull off. So, can you explain your use of virtual assistants to people and what you've done and how you've done it and what it's done for your company? Sure. Um, first of all, I want to give a shout-out to Eric Espinosa who taught me everything that to know about that. of our Startup Ignition family, okay? Um, I mean, he he opened my eyes to this, you know. It wasn't just like, hey, you know, with every bank bonus before I had a I had hired a data entry specialist out of Venezuela through some agency to do some data entry stuff and he lied on his hours and didn't do a good job, was bad at details. So, I had just in my head written off any foreign workers like you just, you know, I just I I didn't trust the whole system. So, but then Eric, you know, he walked uh, he and his Coconut co-founder Tyler, um, when they were doing uh, Venture Validator, they had hired some, you know, Filipino virtual assistants and they had this whole process to follow for for hiring and vetting them and they and they uh, you know, on uh, Marco Polo, they they kind of talked me through all of how to how to do this. So, I was like, oh wow, I could just find a virtual they could just do any they're just like a team member remote, but I pay them $5 an hour instead of, you know, 5K a month or whatever it is, you know. Yeah, yeah. Uh, so we hired our first uh, first virtual assistant ourselves and then through Coconut VA once Eric and Tyler started that, we got the next three and they helped us with, you know, um, client support, billing, uh, you know, scheduling and then some some other just little tasks. But after those third ones, I was like, oh my gosh, these are just brilliant, sharp people who are adaptable and learn quickly and like I want to hire as many of them as we can can because we could use the help. So, after those three, uh, we started doing all the recruiting ourselves and we we've since grown to about 50 team members in the Philippines and Wow. and now in Latin America and some in Africa as well. Wow. So, we have web developers out there. We have graphic design, events coordinator, um, our whole client support staff is out there, you know, account managers, um, client success admins, you know, um, our executive assistants are out there. Our director of operations, we have a call center of about 20 uh, uh, agents as well. found that like these account executives that were just getting warm leads and not really generating prospecting their own big deals, you when you terminated them, these VAs were actually closing those deals for you. Yeah, we have two sales reps who are in the Philippines who are just killing it. Their names are Mario and Consi and they they're actually Careful, careful with don't want them to be poached. I mean, their names are Luigi and just kidding, Mario. I guess it is Mario. But yeah, I I I feel like a lot of entrepreneurs would benefit from doing what you're doing. Just the margin difference of what you can save on costs, but also get amazing like work and as you do this, what are the like don't do this, don't do that? What what what are the mistakes? What cuz many people could not pull off what you've pulled off. What are they? What are What are the Cuz yeah, our our usual rule of thumb is remote work is it's hard it's hard to manage, right? It is hard to manage. So, I mean, you got to I mean, this is like a feedback loop. You got to be always willing to learn and adapt, you know? And the the the concept of hiring is only risky if you're afraid to fire is very true, especially in remote settings. Like um I guess I guess what was what's difficult for a lot of people who try to scale up is they hire, you know, one of the first people they interview. They think, "Oh, I can train anybody to do anything." They bring them on there and then it's like like they're really struggling to get the person like just pick up on the stuff. And then they think, "Oh man, just hiring Filipino workers doesn't work for us. It didn't It didn't work for us cuz you know, it didn't work out with this first person." Well, for my executive assistant, I went through four or five people that I trialed for months. Wow. And ended up with my guy Jay who's phenomenal. Um and then a lot of our roles, you know, we're we're willing to take the time to find the right So, in other words, it sounds like with VAs, you can actually iterate faster. Yes. The process goes faster cuz when you hire somebody here in the US and you hire them to a position, they're this W-2 employee. Yeah, you don't want to fire them in 2 weeks. Yeah. You know, you don't want to fire them in 1 month. You feel that's not fair. You can't get enough. But in this one this VA is not working out, you just move on to a new VA. Yeah. I mean, in a way that's respectful and and and everything, too. Yes, exactly. And respectful. I meant for sure that you're doing that. But the rapidity with which you can go through the cycle seems faster. Yes. I um I want to emphasize like, you know, the free They call it the freelancer world in Philippines, you know, like, you know, working online it's like this, you know, it's like the holy grail of careers for a lot of people because they don't have to commute in in horrible traffic, you know, they can they can work from home and especially single parents, you know, can they can work nights. But then, you know, take care of their kids getting ready for school, sleep while they're at school and all this stuff. So, much more preferred lifestyle for for a certain type of worker and um yeah, the iterations have been awesome. So, we we have a whole system now where when we put out a job post, you know, we have a you know, the application is you know, send us a Loom video of 90 seconds telling us about yourself plus your resume. If we like their Loom video and how they communicate and present themselves, they seem, you know, sharp and and with it, then we'll send them a test task that's relevant to their to their job. Yeah, you can test them easier, too, right? Yes. Yeah. And with American workers, I feel like you know, in the in the web development industry, they might have you do like tests. Tests. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but I feel like the average workers, you know, might even get offended if it's like, "Hey, do this test for us before I do And actually, I'm not doing that. And actually, it's like it's just not part of the way we do things. It's not. So, it's interesting. And okay, I also notice one thing. Is this correct? It's out of the 50, it seems like you got like three or four lynchpin people that are really really good in the Philippines. And like one of them does all your recruiting and hiring out of other VAs. Okay? And then you have one that's like super good at helping you as the CEO. Then you have another one that's over maybe the sales or whatever leads or whatever. It's like you have actually found and those ones are really good at helping the other ones be more efficient. Is that correct? I would say we have a lot more than five superstars. I mean, we we found a lot of really wonderful people. Yeah, but so so but it's it's you Yeah, so in other words, they become literally helpful in making sure the other ones are productive. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, we've got um And is there a kind of a pecking order hierarchy amongst them then? Yeah, I mean, we don't even think of them as VAs. They're just remote team members. They fit into a hierarchy and there's leadership positions and you know, people are accountable to their managers and and whatnot. So. Yeah, they're part of the team, yeah. of the team, yeah. And one of our very first VAs, she's been with us for, you know, 4 years at this point and she oversees a team of like 20 plus. Yeah, she's part of the culture, yeah. We've even flown her out here to the US multiple times now. She's gone to PestWorld with us and you know, we've flown to the Philippines and met a whole bunch of our team members there, too. And in Does this change their lives with the opportunities for them, too? Um I would say so. Many of them um They they many of them send really nice messages pretty often actually to say like, "Thanks for this wonderful opportunity." And people are people are paying for, you know, in Philippines in the Philippines, you know, a lot of cultures they're more you know, there's multi-general multi-generational households, right? And you know, so people are paying for they're supporting their parents. They're sending their nieces and nephews to college sometimes. You know, they're buying property. They're buying cars. They're traveling. They're going on vacations to, you know, Hong Kong or Thailand or whatever, which is things that they couldn't have done before. Or maybe even if they were in a call center making decent money, you know, their rigorous in-person schedules and, you know, lack of work-life balance is just doesn't provide the same quality of life at all. And and something that we are proud to do is like every year between Christmas and New Year's everybody gets that whole week off. Wow. And that's something that was like totally unheard of for a lot of them. So, um I would say of all the meaningful aspects of Baton, you know, providing for my family and and Cody's family and all of our families like um what gives me the most joy is just creating jobs for people and I I just I just think back to my startups that I've built up and you know, had success from and you know, you yeah, you have that Christmas party and you see all the employees there and you're and you see the families And they're making their living from your work. Yeah, and you're just like and you're what you started. Well, first first of all, as a founder, you see, "Oh my gosh, that's millions of dollars of salary." But also, you see, "Wow, I'm supporting these many people, their lives, what they're doing, what they're doing in the free time, what their their kids' soccer activity." Whatever it is, it's like, "Wow, my company is doing and fueling that." And it's real it's a really cool feeling and impactful feeling. I think we're coming up on time. We are. Okay, so in closing, what do you want to close with? Okay, I want to just ask like we like and just cuz you'd be such a good one. Okay, after all we've talked about here, to the listeners who are entrepreneurs or wanting to be an entrepreneur, give them quick checklist tips. What would Let's say they're working like you were working for an employer, you saw an opportunity, something you could do. And now, let me ask this question. Is GreenX a customer of yours? GreenX is a customer. So, your former employer is a customer. Yes. They have dreams to do something similar. Right now, what would be the quick tips you tell them? Um anyone who's trying to do something simple similar, I would say just start. Don't live in your head or behind your screen so much. I probably say the most valuable thing you could ever do is talk to a a potential customer. Yeah. I've had a number of people approach me like, "Oh man, hey Phil, what do you think about this business idea?" It's like, "I don't know if it really matters what I think. Like did you talk to potential You talking like we used to talk. Our opinion doesn't matter. It's your customers who matter, yeah. Yeah. And I want to apologize to anyone who's reached out to me. If I seem short or rude, I'm not trying to be short. I'm just trying to be direct with you. It's like, "Look, it doesn't matter if you talk to me. Talk to your customers." And and then like if you're living too much in your head or whatever, the best thing to dispel fear and and doubt in your mind is action, you know? So, just get out of the get out of where you are, talk to people, and you'll be amazed how far you can go without a product or anything. the father of lean startup Steve Blank, there are no answers inside your building. They're all outside the building. And that's what we teach at Startup Ignition. Teach you how to do it right and to do it thoroughly. I think I think I think Phil, we can wrap up Phil's story is you are a margin hunter, you're frugal, you know how you know how to stretch a dollar, right? I think that's a lot of the underlying success of Baton is like what you guys can do with limited resources and capital. And even though you're now reaching millions and millions of dollars in revenue, it's like you still have that mentality, which is great to see. Obviously, from an investor standpoint, but also just from an operator standpoint, like to not waste any capital or waste any resource within a startup is like half the game, right? Cuz you can lose 6 months, a year of time by just making the wrong decision. And that's why, you know, finding mentors, finding accelerating paths to get you from point A to point B with much more knowledge can save you so much in startup hood, right? Yes. So. That's right. Okay. All right, I think it's time to wrap it up. But thank you so much for tuning in. We are We have an exciting next episode as well. We have a billion-dollar unicorn founder coming on our podcast next. Damn. And so, we'll have to see who it is. Uh the company was founded back in 2003. Let's So, let's see what your guesses are. But we will see you next time. Thank you. Keep building. Keep operating. Keep pushing. Reach out to us, John and Tyler. Reach out to Phil. I'm sure he'll take on any kind of outreach from this podcast. Thank you for tuning in and thank you, Phil, for coming. Thank you, guys. This has been a great episode and we are signing out.