Adam Sidwell

I've got this creative itch that I want to scratch. I've got to do it. I can't let other people stand in the way. I can't keep waiting for everyone to say yes. All this new AI technology that's enhancing and empowering the artists and the visual artists and all these technologists is not taking away their job. It's actually empowering the studios to do more, produce more, build more entertainment, build more media, build more games, build more movies. It's going to enable everybody to just have milk. Welcome back to the Startup Ignition Podcast. I am Tyler Richards, your host or your co-host. This is John Richards. Hello, another co-host. You know us by now. We are old news. But today we have live and in studio Adam Sidwell with Future House Studios. and thank you so much for coming. I know that you kind of dropped everything you were doing to come onto this podcast, so I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming. >> Yeah, I love Startup Ignition. I love, you know, John's courses and the boot camp and really set us in the right direction. So, >> you've been great. I mean, ever since I met you from your uh book publishing days, then you went to AR, VR, and became an expert in all of that. And just >> Do you guys go back very far? >> Oh, it was like the first boot camp or the second boot camp. I think it was What were you in? >> I think it was second or third cohort. >> Yeah. second or third which had to be 11 years 15 or 16 >> 2016 10 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. >> And hopefully it helped out in his entrepreneur journey. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Yeah. Well, I've seen you everywhere. I mean, you get recognition from Silicon Slopes, I feel like, all the time. You're on podcasts. I I don't know. I see you on LinkedIn. Are I feel like you're pretty active on LinkedIn. >> Pretty active on LinkedIn. >> He's real deal. He's always involved in super high quality projects. >> Yeah. And you just have a cool You have a awesome background. You have a cool story to tell. So, I'm really excited to dive in. But before we do, I have a bio for you so everybody knows who we're dealing with. Okay. Hopefully, this is all correct here. You were kind of correcting me a lot pre-podcast, so I hope this is all right. So, we'll correct this on the fly, but Adam Sidwell is a founder and head of of studio at Future House Studios, an award-winning Utah based animation, game development, and interactive entertainment studio. You do all the things. Um be before becoming an entrepreneur, Adam spent years in the visual effects industry working with studios including industrial industrial light and magic which is >> Lucasfilm >> Lucasfilm and ILM. That's the one. Yes. >> Famous famous >> Weda digital and digital domain and Sony Pictures image works and within helping bring characters and effects to life on huge blockbuster films. Um like what what were some of the films? >> Uh well we have some Marvel movies like Thor. Uh we have uh iRoot, Pirates of the Caribbean. >> You worked on all of those. >> All those all those. It's been it's been an >> I know. I've seen Transformers on your website. >> Transformers. Uh Transformers 2 uh was uh one that I actually worked on um at Digital Domain when it was a movie and that was really a lot of fun. If you remember, there's there's this girl that she transforms into a Decepticon. Yeah. >> Remember that one? That shot? I was working on that shot. That is that does is Transformer 2 the scene that has like all the super intricate like transformation where it went slow-mo and it was like so many different nuts and bolts >> so many times. So many times that's a Michael Bay specialty. He's really loves those visuals and getting in there with the camera. >> Yeah. And like going through the machine and all the clicking. >> Absolutely. So that was those were a lot of the things that we worked on as uh what I was called was a technical director. And so there's art, there's animation, there's engineering, there's code. All of that goes into it. And you're with this really incredible high-caliber team of people who do amazing things. I mean, it's like it's like working for the Google of the visual effects industry. Everybody's so >> I always get amazed when I see the credits on a movie like that. How many people were involved? >> So many people. So many people. But then after that kind of studio run, working for all those studios, you made the jump into books and publishing. That's right. and you went over for a few years and started publishing books and had like some Amazon bestsellers or >> That's right. Update update me there. >> So, um I always had this creative itch. You know, when you we get into film, we want to tell stories. And so, the best way that I could start telling stories was, you know, the lean method, open up your laptop and start typing. Yeah. >> And so, I did and I wrote a book uh that was a a children's, you know, kind of like Harry Potter age group 8 8 to 12 adventure story. And that one rocketed up to the um Amazon top 100. >> And what was the title? >> It was called It's called Evertaster. >> Oh yeah. >> And uh there's a whole series and um and kids love it everywhere. I still get I I I now get people in their 20s coming up to me saying, "Oh, I love that book." When I was a kid, oh, you're the author of that book. That's so cool. >> That is cool. That is really cool. >> It's a lot of fun. You know, so I went around the country and was um signing in Barnes & Noble and Costco and independent bookstores, you know, visit toured around 12 states. uh sold, you know, a fair amount of copies of uh of that and other books that I wrote. And so then I decided I would start a publishing company. Um really cool. I got to I got to sell the uh the film option to Everister, the story to Orson Scott Card, who's the author of Enders Game and he had that option for a while and we were working on development uh for that for film. >> If and you know got to read your books, Enders Game is a masterpiece. >> Oh, it's so good. It's it's fantastic. It's, >> you know, his older brother who's a lawyer has, that's the number one. He reads voraciously, but he's read that book >> cover to cover over 10 times. Really, the same book. >> It's it's packed full of story and detail, you know. >> Well, and I actually like the movie version they put out because if you've never read the book, the people when they made the movie version, it's such a shock. I won't ruin it for everybody here, but the, you know, the twist in that story is incredible. >> Yeah, it's great. Actually, I got to work on the movie. You did? I got to work on the movie Enders Game and I knew Scott Card, you know, at the time and so it was fun to >> have that connection and, you know, talk to him as we >> It's just a great sci-fi story and concept and even more relevant today with the advent of AI >> really >> than it was. >> Well, well, with your background, I'm really excited to talk about the impact of AI today on everything that you've been doing. Okay. So you went studio work to visual effects to books, writing books to publishing books and then back to your own studio. >> Back to my own studio >> now where you are doing gaming, VFX, AR, VR. Um, and you said just pre-podcast that you mostly working on the gaming industry now. >> The gaming industry. That's right. So um, when uh I worked in publishing, it was that was a tough slog. And in fact, I remember John when you came over to the office and I told you about uh some of the the numbers of how the publishing industry worked, you go, "Oh, that is a tough sector to be in." >> And I agree with you. Um and so I' I'd say that almost, you know, that that's still company, that company is still around. We still publish, but I'd almost say that was a >> my first failed Yeah. >> uh company, entrepreneurship, >> a little bit of a labor of love, too. >> A labor of love. And you know, I discovered along the way a lot of the principles and this is when I took your class um and started learning about lean startup methodology and discovering a lot of the principles behind it. And sometimes uh one one big principle to understand was you could be working really hard in one sector and failing but then apply that same amount of work in another sector and it just goes gang busters. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, it just really depends on what you choose and where the market is >> and catching waves at the right time. >> Catching waves. I was just going to say that because I remember that analogy we said you have to catch the wave. You have to be on the front of it. You can't be too late, but you can't be too early. Yeah. >> Um to make that wave work. And and you know, fortunately >> to to go to the next stage of the story is 2020 with all the madness of COVID was an excellent wave. a time to catch the wave for building uh a studio that would >> um deal with animation, game development, interactive design. Um so that's what we did and and really you know according to lean startup principles I was working somewhere else. Um that company was was going was having was on hard times uh running out of funding and um I had clients that kept coming to me and saying hey would you create this or this for us? >> Yep. >> And you've got a team right? You can do this. and I said, "You know what? I'm going to do it." And so, um, I I I've had a number of, you know, entrepreneurs come and ask for advice. And I think that one of the biggest pieces of advice I can give is is make sure that the market's ready for you. Yeah. >> Um, >> timing, >> timing is everything. And and had I gone out, put up my shingles, said, "I'm open for business before I had a client, it would have been a tough road." Yeah. And you operate differently when you're struggling to get that next bit of capital because especially, you know, I I didn't raise money. I just took a dollar out of my pocket. I put it on the desk and I said, "We're in business." >> Yeah. >> Um and I remember that first >> moment where uh we had not invoiced the client yet. We were going to invoice them every two weeks, but I had people working for me that whole time. And there's that moment where >> we need to get paid. >> We really hope we're going to get paid. and and um you know it was actually very very safe and secure according to most entrepreneurial ventures because we got paid two weeks later. >> But um there's a little bit of that fear where what if they don't pay? What's going to happen? You know, are they going to are they just going to run? Y let's go back to that timing thing just because it's such a teaching moment what you just brought up of timing and we teach this all the time but I've if you look at the unicorns of Utah and some of our viewers and listeners may be out of state but Utah's gone through an incredible has the most unicorns per capita of anywhere in the country but the timing is everything. If you look at the incredible runup of the last decade financially with the economic um conditions and the zero interest rate period and all that, the companies that started in Utah in 2010 to 2012 went through and had incredible outcomes. But if those same companies had started in 2018, they would have never had the outcome. It's just so timing and knowing what the macroeconomy is doing, what the sector is doing, what your industry is doing, and then technological disruption, which you react to a lot because that's what you've got to do. Those all come into play to affect timing. And so it's an entrepreneur needs to make sure they're not fighting massive conditions out of their control because it doesn't matter how good you are. If you're fighting against headwinds all the time, you're not going to make it. >> It's just too hard. It's just too hard. go put your effort into something. There's too many tailwind. >> Yeah. You there's too many forces fighting your Yeah. your headwind, right? Um but now your studio, I've read on your website and doing the research for this podcast, you work with a ton of cool IP. You like Sonic the Hedgehog, Transformers, Yo Gaba Gaba, uh whatever else I saw on there. I saw all these characters. I'm like, "Dude, go Adam. That's so cool to be working with all that kind of stuff." So, okay. We just got through Adam's bio. We haven't even gotten into anything else yet. So many things to talk about. >> But to summarize, Adam, would you kind of define yourself as just like a creative storyteller and whatever means that's coming through to your audience, that's kind of what you're doing. That's what that's the gist I'm kind of picking up here is like you're you're you're a creative guy. You have all these ideas and stories in your head and you're like whether that's through visual effects or games or books or whatever it is, I just want to get the audience into my stories and bring those stories to life, which is really really cool. >> So that's actually a really good description. And I I feel flattered when you say that because I I do consider myself a a storyteller. Um especially, you know, with the the writing and the film and and all of these are just devices to tell stories. I consider myself a a storytelling technologist. >> Yeah. It's cool where you bridge the gap into entrepreneurship, right? Where you're able to provide means for you and your family and other people and those that are you're in under your employment. You're able to bring that creativity, but also make a business model out of it, right? You're not just some painter sitting in your studio crossing your fingers to sell a painting. You're actually monetizing your skill set, which is really, really cool. >> And and it's a hard thing, but some one thing that makes me really happy is the number of people that I've employed over the years. And when I get a call from the bank verifying their employment so they can buy a house, >> that feels really cool to know that you've made a difference in that person's life. and um and yeah, we all know that's hard because then there's the times when you might have to you you don't have enough money to keep someone employed and there's there's there layoffs, but overall I think of um the contributions I've been able to make to my employees and it makes me really happy and I've got a great management team that helps me do this that puts this all together and you you just you >> there's joy in um >> providing that >> in providing that and telling stories together and using the latest cutting edge cutting edge technology to do so. That's what's really fun >> and I want to dive into that. But before we dive into that and we get into your story and your career and everything cuz it's full of a ton of fun things to dive into, I have an icebreaker. So, I don't know if you've ever watched our our podcast episodes before, but we always do an icebreaker with our guests where I just spring something on them real quick. Just fun game type atmosphere. And today we're going to play Roll the Credits. Okay. And what I'm gonna I'm gonna ask both of you your favorite thing or best thing or thing you would prefer over the other and you just tell me what your preference is. Okay. Okay. Both of us. >> Yeah. Both of you. So this is obviously going to be entertainment, gaming, movies, that kind of uh uh roll the credits type game. So number one, we're going to go with what's the what's the best movie of 2026 so far? What have you seen so far that's the best thing this year? And I know my dad's a movie guy. I don't know if you're a movie guy. You got to stay in the entertainment industry. >> I'm a movie guy. I'm a movie guy. Oh, let's see. Can Can we list off the ones that have come out so far? >> I mean, there's been so many billion dollar movies already. I don't know if those top the list or not, but what's the best movie you've seen so far this year? >> I'm trying to think what what what it is. There's been a lot of good ones. And I I've actually noticed a trend, too. Like the Rotten Tomato scores on average for new movies. It used to be there were a lot of clunkers down in 10, 20, 30. A lot. seems like the average movies now the average has gone up to where the critics and everybody are just rating them 60 70 80 even for one that you it's I just maybe it's getting easier to make movies or tell stories because you're not worried about it doesn't cost as much I don't know what's going on >> maybe it is maybe that's interesting or or some of the critics have eased up a little bit or or fewer fewer Rotten Tomatoes get through >> I know there's been some great ones but I'm trying to think right now off >> let's list off a couple that have come out let's see we have Avatar Fire and Oh, wow. That was this year. >> That was I think that was this year. Last year last December. It was December. But that's still good. >> Mandalorian and Grou. >> Um, what else have we seen? There's been a couple of these small indie YouTuber horror films. >> I'd have to get out my phone to look at cuz I go to a lot of movies. >> Look at the list. >> I don't know. >> You guys can't think of the top one out of your head. >> Well, I love the Spider-Man movie I just saw. I thought that was really good. I thought Supergirl was absolutely terrible. >> Yeah. >> Oh, did Superman Superman came out last year. >> Yeah. No, Superman was but I'm gonna tell you something that's really surprised me too and this is a shout out a little bit to Utah. Angel Studios is coming out with really good movies that are >> they're doing great. >> I I I my wife and I go to one of those movies >> and they at first >> was worried they'd be cheesy and that type of thing, but I'm coming out these are quality movies and they're getting quality stars involved in them. Like um I went to Young Washington and it was really a good historical piece and my wife doesn't like historical pieces that much and she liked it. >> Oh great. >> That's great. >> So what are you putting up for the best movie so far? >> I don't know. I have to think of because there's been some really good ones. I'm trying to top one. We won't hold the We won't hold you to it, but just name the one. >> I'm trying to think. I don't want to name one that's not the top one. In my head I'm not getting the ones that I would. >> He wants to be very well. >> I'm just going to say um you know without remembering all of the movies that came out. Yeah. Chief, get get us a list. I I did like Mandalorian and Grou. >> Yeah. >> You know, and it wasn't >> this, you know, I know I know that they didn't get the blockbuster status that they wanted and, you know, the ticket sales that they wanted, but it was just a nice Mandalorian movie. I'm particularly a huge Star Wars fan. Love Mandalorian. >> I haven't seen Odyssey yet. Project Hail Mary. >> Project Hail Mary. There you go. That was spectacular. My wife hates sci-fi and she read the book and she couldn't wait to see the movie and she said the book was incred. I go, "Susan, this was really sci-fi. There's an alien with made of rock." Yeah. >> Okay. Rock hands. Okay. And all that. She goes, "Oh, this is the best movie." And I go, "Why is the best movie?" And it's because the relationship the relationship. >> And what's really interesting about Project Hillary and and the other things that Andy Weir writes is that >> um it it it's hard science fiction. >> She has explanations and science behind everything so that it's plausible. Actually, there's a couple twists in there like this idea of these um you know this this uh sun eating bacteria that uh are a little bit far-fetched but um everything else is pretty decent. Yeah, the >> really solid you know the Martian that was great. That was fantastic because I think we can all relate to that because especially as entrepreneurs because we're thinking about what's the next step and he writes about those next steps. He writes about hey we're going to get to Mars soon and what's it going to be like and that's pretty cool. >> That's cool. So, another one that was good was Michael. Um, >> Michael the great I didn't know what to expect and all that. It actually made me It kind of resurrected Michael Jackson's my feelings about Michael Jackson. >> Yes. >> And that I feel better about him. >> Yeah. >> After watching that movie, >> I think that I think that was the purpose though. Maybe. >> Yeah. No, for sure. >> And and and it brought back his music and it brought back a whole feeling of like of the 80s and 90s when he was the superstar. I mean, he that was he was the creation of a superstar. I mean, Taylor Swift owes so much >> to Michael Jackson. >> Yeah. >> And to all the previous superstars. >> Might be my favorite. House of Dynamite. Was that this year? >> I don't even know what that is. >> House of Dynamite. So good. >> What's House of Dynamite? >> That's the one where our re um where there's a reaction. There's a nuclear missile fired towards the United States and they don't know where it came from and and it's >> what happens in the next 20 minutes. It's I don't want to take it away from me. I think it was a masterpiece. >> Sounds very interesting. >> You guys had House of Dynamite. >> And you saw that in theaters? >> I think it was a Netflix made movie. >> Okay. >> It was It's so good. I'm not It has a all C, you know, Rebecca Ferguson's in it, a whole bunch of other stars and it's just it's like a docky drama kind of and it's really and it's all there's only one thing not completely accurate in that movie of what would happen if we had a missile fired from a submarine. They didn't know where it's at. Heading towards Chicago >> and when they find the trajectory and all the counter measures we would take and how it's a crapshoot where we're going to stop it and if it pass just crazy and it shows minute by minute what's going on and it's crazy. >> It's wild. >> Okay. What was that? >> Also dynamite. Also dynamite. >> I probably seen it three times already this year. >> Oh my gosh. I want to watch that now. >> Okay. So, moving on to the next one. What's the movie you watched the most growing up? Like what what >> growing up? Star Wars. >> Star Wars. >> Star Wars. >> Young Frankenstein. >> Young Frankenstein. >> I went to see that as a 10 to 12year-old, not sure. Seven times in the theater. >> Wow. >> What the Okay. >> Wait, that's a comedy, right? >> Yes. >> It's a genius comedy. But the movie I've seen the most in my life now is Edge of Tomorrow. But that's in the last >> Oh, that's the the Tom Cruz one where >> I absolutely love. >> Okay. It's where he repeats, right? And he goes back and he he gets repeat live, die, repeat the original title, I think, you know, >> based on a Japanese story. >> But I just think the execution, everything, it was I love time travel. Um, and it that movie really struck a lot. Yeah. >> That was fascinating. >> Yeah. >> Okay. One movie you wish you could erase from memory. Which So >> Crybaby. >> Why? Because it was so bad. >> Was that Johnny Depp? >> Wait. so so bad or because it's so good you wish you could watch it. >> My wife and I walked out. >> Wow. >> We I never walk out of movies. >> Wow. >> Crybaby with Johnny Depp. And it was so >> What was that one about? >> It's he he I think Johnny Depp was a young man. I'm not sure, but I think it was I think it's Johnny Depp playing like a 16-year-old >> and it was just so weird. So8s punk, whatever. I it just it I mean it was absolutely untold. >> Hey, if you like Crybaby, >> this was years ago or this came out recently. >> Years ago, I'm going to guess it's in 1980. >> How about you? Do you have a movie that you wish you could erase from memory? >> Can I erase um >> either for good or for bad? >> Star Wars episode 8 and nine. >> Eight and nine. >> Yeah, maybe seven. Wow. >> Yeah, let's just get rid of them. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Indiana Jones Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. >> Oh, yeah. That one of those because because the problem is they went back and they soleied the franchise. You know, they broke the storytelling world. It just you you had these wonderful fond memories of the previous movies and then these come out and they were stinkers. >> Did you like seven though of Star Wars? >> Ah, it was just a copy of >> with Luke coming back. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, there could have done so many things with it, but you've got this young potential Jedi on a on a sandy desert planet looking for a droid. Come on. We could have thought of something different. >> You know, a little bit different. I think that J.J. Abrams was very very scared after episodes one, two, and three had such a negative fan reaction that he wanted to play it safe. And he played it so safe that there was no story there at all. Um, there were some interesting characters that got started but never went anywhere. You know, Finn, very interesting character, extor Stormtrooper who defects, but then nothing ever happened to him. >> Rey, what was Rey? You know, like she could have been so cool. Yeah. Um, and and she was in the first movie, but then it just really didn't go anywhere. So, uh, you know th those we could erase those. >> You one of my greatest Star Wars you bring this up. I'm my greatest was actually the Mandalorian episode. The last one of season one. >> Okay. >> Do you remember the what happened when they're all in there and they're under all this pressure and they're all about to be killed and then all of a sudden this guy comes in, one guy, and defeats all the enemy. Remember Luke? It was Luke's guy. >> What can one lone >> and they did a digital young Luke right on it? Fantastic. That literally gave me goosebumps. >> Oh, I love that because because that that was for us, John, because we love the original movies and we know how cool Luke Skywalker is. And then you had that moment >> came in and did that and just takes them all down. >> Oh, and that's what that's that's what you expect Luke to do. That's been dreaming of seeing >> that was quality Star Wars, don't you think? >> It was such good Star Wars. That was good. Great Star Wars right there. That was for all of us. >> Uh, this one's just for you, Adam. And just because I'm curious now, what's your favorite movie you've ever personally worked on and held on? >> Ever personally worked on. So >> favorite again that I had that I like the movie the best or favorite and I had the best work experience working on it? >> Probably work experience. >> Okay. Work experience. >> Two movies come to mind. >> Okay. >> Um maybe three. Uh one King Kong. >> King Kong. >> King Kong because I >> The one with Jack Black. >> The one with Jack Black. >> Wow. Okay. You did that. Okay. >> Yes. So that was the second movie I ever worked on and uh they flew me down to New Zealand. I lived there for over a year and I had this new life in New Zealand and it was Peter Jackson studio and they were coming fresh off of Lord of the Rings. And so there were Lord of the Rings paraphernolia all over the studio just shoved in the corner, sword, shields, elven armor, all these cool things. And um it was just such an experience to go live in this foreign country and be at the top studio >> um creating all these things and and working there. And that so that was that was an incredible experience. Another really cool one was um >> I mentioned Tron, but I'm going to I'm going to talk about Pirates of the Caribbean um because that was at Lucasfilm ILM Industrial Light and Magic and you walk in there, Darth Vader is in the lobby, Boba Fett ready to greet you. And one night I'm in there, you know, working late. It feels like you're in Star Wars land. You just feel >> the joy of of being around people who love that franchise and love to create. And there and there's such a history and a story of >> going all the way back to 1977 of these brilliant technicians and artists and engineers who created all of these amazing special effects. Yeah. >> And you're there like practical effects. >> Practical effects moving into computers. it's still doing practical, you know, the the blend of so many things. And it was just the the paragon of of uh film making in that regard. And I walk late in in late one night and I see um in the lobby George Lucas and he's chatting with somebody I recognize. That's Francis Ford Compula and they were just because they're buddies, right? So they're there in the lobby and I just walk right on by and just >> feel it. Just stare. Just stare. >> Like I want to interrupt so bad. >> You want to interrupt so bad. Hi I'm Adam. I'm Adam. You know me, right? I work for you. He's like, get out of here. >> Star Wars sounds like had an impact. I got to tell you, you I don't You're probably too young for this for sure, but in 1977 when it came out >> in Seattle, Washington, literally that movie played in one theater only. And the way it went and they had it, it probably may have been in other ones, but it stayed in one theater for almost two years. And the lineups for every showing wrapped around the block. >> Well, I feel like >> that's how big it was in 1977. It was I mean, literally a year after its release, people are standing around the block in line to see the movie. >> I feel like Odyssey is the same. I've been trying to watch Odyssey in an IMAX theater. I don't >> I live in a town here and there's an IMAX theater right there and I don't want to go. I can't get in. I've checked at least 11 times. >> Many are sold out till September. Unless you want to sit in the front row. >> Yeah. I'm not sitting on the side or front row. >> No, no, you got to sit. You got to sit back further. >> Yeah. No, they're all And then it just stopped its run at the best place here in Utah. Anyway, I' I've been trying to see Odyssey and IMAX 2. I've tried. >> Let's all go. Come on. Let's go. Let's go. Go see IMAX. >> And And it's interesting you say that about Star Wars because basically it was that time with George Lucas and Steven Spielberg with Jaws that they invented the blockbuster. Yeah. >> You know, there was no concept of this thing that came in and just dominated the box office and made so much money all in one movie. That's another movie that I saw last time. >> They call it Blockbuster because they would line up around the block. >> I don't know. Is that why? >> I just put two and two together. There's a fantastic podcast um not as good as this one, but it's called Blockbuster and it's the story of those films getting made. >> So the first what what started a little bit was George Lucas American Graffiti. Yes. Okay. And then Spielberg comes out with Jaws and becomes the bestselling movie of all time. Okay. And then those two get together and start collaborating, working on stuff and then George Lucas does Star Wars and then they do in so this was my year formative years, junior high, high school, all these movies. So lucky to be part of that time and then and then it ends in 1980 with Indiana Jones where they worked together and so you had these incredible movies and you'd go to the movies and it was like magic. I mean, Indiana Jones when you first that's like an oldfashioned movie they made in the 30s or something, >> but the story and everything it was incredible. >> So great. >> Okay, that was a great I'm going to wrap up the icebreaker because we actually want to talk to Adam about his past here a little bit. Let's go. >> Um, but before because I do want to understand how does someone from Utah are you from Utah originally? >> I'm from California. Oh, >> from California but but a lot of roots in Utah. >> Let's just go back to the beginning. >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to know how you end up working on these like big films and get into specialist and so where did you grow up and go to high school? >> So I grew up in Modesto, California. >> Same place as George Lucas actually. So it just must be in the water, you know. I think >> American graffiti was in some kind of town. I don't know. >> It was in Modesto really. >> The story about American Graffiti is Cruising Mckenry, which is a street in Modesto that we would cruise as teenagers. In fact, they had graffiti night there where everyone would bring their classic cars to celebrate basically what George Lucas >> told the story he told in that movie which was about Americana in that time. And so I grew up after that era, you know, I was born in 1978, so right after Star Wars came out. >> Um, and then uh I went to Brigham Young University >> and there was this little upstart program, >> animation program where a couple of guys got in a room, they had some computers and a professor, his name was Brent Adams. Rant said, "Let's do animation. Um, here's some software. We got it donated to us from Pixar and from various other places. We don't know how to use it. Go for it." >> Is that the one that starts with an M? What's the name? >> Render Man. >> Render Man. >> Render Man. Yeah. Render Man called Maya. >> Maya. They got like 50 licenses, which was a big deal in that animation part. And that's what made And then I think Pixar must have used that because they started recruiting people to Pixar because people got on that system. Yeah. >> In fact, Ed Catmill came to Brigham university said surprisingly this has become the best animation school. Uh that was a number of decades ago and they were surprised because >> so what year was this that you it got into the animation? >> So I started I joined that program in 1999. >> Wow. >> And then uh you know I was I was on the five-year track for college because I went and did a computer science major as well. Um so it was double major. Really? >> Yeah. And that that really helped. It was one of the best decisions I made because I was not a technical person until I had taken that major and forced myself >> to learn and now you're more creative. Then you got the combination of creativity and uh engineering 99. What year did Toy Story come out? >> Uh so Toy Story was 965. >> So Pixar was humb. >> Yeah, I think it was I think it was 95. It was so so we you know seen Toy Story seen Jurassic Park that was a big influence. Was D was Jurassic Park built by It wasn't done by Pixar. >> That was industrial light and magic. >> Yeah, that was that was >> Stephen Spielberg used for all those stuff. >> Yeah. >> Yep. So they did all the effects for all the big movies. Um and so then Toy Story was across the bay uh being built at Pixar and uh so there was just this renaissance of creativ. >> So I did not know this. So the BYU animation department is it became top top notch. became top top notch you know >> just cuz you had access to the softwares that all these things were written >> well we had access to the software >> and good professors what's the other professors there's a couple other >> names Kelly loosely >> Kelly loosely >> Kelly came in after I did in fact I always tell Kelly I was in the animation program longer than he has been but uh but Kelly came from DreamWorks and he was >> you know uh productionoriented very creative also had made some short films um and so he knew a lot and the first class he taught was storyboarding um and character design and um then they kept recruiting you know when I was there first it was just us and Brent and it was a lot of just go figure it out guys because there were no there was no curriculum I remember just signing up for 494R which was just a repeatable animation class every semester where we walk in the room they say just go >> and that was actually harder in many ways because we had to teach ourselves how to learn >> yeah those are the R ones are those experimental like free experimental so there was a young uh high school girl in our neighborhood here in Provo that really really wanted to get in the animation program or just loved animation and he she as she was going from high school to college I got Kelly Loosely to make her his TA. >> Oh. >> And we got very close to him and she has went on to do some great things. And it's just interesting about how he I just know that there's top professors too. >> Top professors. Top professors. At the time there were none. Yeah. >> Um until you know until Kelly came in and I think we had >> by the time we gradu he uh he did DreamWorks and um Kelly was doing other short films and and things like that. Um and and so uh Kelly >> explains a lot about you too by the way. I didn't know you went through that program. >> I did. Yeah, I did. And and it was very very interesting because um they didn't get professors until after we graduated. Yeah. >> And so the objective was to go make a short film. And we made this short film called Lemmings. And it was a short animated film. It's five minutes long about some lemmings who go jump off a cliff. And one lemming tries to stop them. >> It won uh an >> it won a student >> Oscar, student academy award and a student Emmy and I remember this cool moment where we went to the big stage with the the big golden statues and we're there at the theater in downtown Los Angeles. We're all students. just jumped in my minivan and drove down there together. >> And Pete Doctor, who is the director >> of um of uh let's see, Toys, let's see, uh Cars, was it Cars? Pete Doctor, Finding Nemo, uh Monsters, Inc. Monsters Inc. And a couple of them and and Up. He presented the award to um the director of our film, >> Inside Out, Up and Soul, Monsters, Inc. He did all >> Monsters Inc. Yeah. He's so he's, you know, a fixture part of Brain Trust at Pixar, what they call him. and he presented the award uh to us and that was just an incredible moment. We thought okay we can do this. There's this industry that seemed impenetrable. It seemed like this fortress wall was around it and somehow these kids >> from Utah and you know >> you still have that lemmings a short film somewhere. >> Yeah, we do. Absolutely. It's available online. >> That made big news in BYU was very proud of >> very proud. In fact, they they just this year made a life-sized stat well a statue that's as big as me and of the lemmings and put it in the lobby >> of uh computer science and computer animation program. >> That's cool. >> 2003. Is that >> 2003? Yeah. 2003. >> It's right here. Yeah. >> And it was really fun because um there were uh there were some people from Digital Domain who had graduated from BYU and they came back and his name was Vern Wilberg, just a really great guy. and he said, "Hey, I I'm going to I'm happy to um give you notes on the film and give you instructions and ideas and insight." And he would, you know, rip the film to shreds and we'd all come out of there feeling, "Oh boy, this is bad." But eventually he connected us and um we got hired and I say we because there were about six of us that all went to digital domain. A couple other people went to Rhythm and Hughes and Industrial Light Magic. We all went to work on the movie Iroot and so we got hired. >> I love i Robot, too. Oh, fantastic. >> I love that. Is it reading Isaac Azimoff, right? >> Oh, yes. Exactly. I'm sitting there reading Isaac Azimoff and then I'm working laws of robotics. >> So cool and very relevant today with AI, >> isn't it? It's so relevant now. >> It's so relevant. And so so then the career was off and running. And um I I always like to tell uh people that, you know, the my first job it was I made $13.64 an hour and I was coding. I was writing tools for this major blockbuster movie living in Los Angeles. The year was 2003, you know, and and uh I tell that because sometimes there's an expectation that I'm going to come out of school and I'm going to be making >> Yeah. >> buco bucks or I'm going to make it and and everything's going to be resolved when um the the story is really the hustle doesn't stop. >> Yeah. >> You got to keep going >> and dues are have to be paid. >> Dues have to be paid. And would I have worked that job for free? I would have. >> Yeah. I mean, you were around worldclass people. >> World-Cass people. And those people were the ones who connected me because I did a good job for them, right? Um, they connected me with my next job is when I got to go down to Weda Digital and then I got to go into Industrial Light Magic and then suddenly the world was open because I knew people at every one of these studios and could go work there um and work on those movies and it was fantastic. Yeah. >> And that has actually played out um >> now in entrepreneurship because I I have people calling me and telling me, "Hey, I want to start an animation studio." And I said, "Well, you need you have a couple options. You either need a lot of capital, you know, like uh in the case of Phil Knight, founder of Nike, he wanted to start a studio, so they started Leica, he had a bunch of money, they could start a studio, right?" Because you can hire the talent or need a lot of reputation capital. Yeah. >> Which means you need connections or people that trust you that will say, "Hey, I want to work with you because I've worked with you before, did a good job, and I know you can deliver. So, I'm going to bring this to you." and the you know because we were a bootstrap startup we didn't have number one but we had number two and that's what we've based um you know future studios was based on that is who have I worked with before who trusts us who wants to bring things to us and you know that that was um it's it's satisfying in many ways because there were times when I was taking jobs and I had to fly back and forth to LA and I'm away from my family and I'm thinking to myself at this point in my career should I really be doing this I feel like I would be further ahead but some of those jobs panned out into us getting our biggest contracts um now with the studio and that's been really wonderful. >> Yeah. >> So, back so going back to your early career working for all these studios, progressing up, who was kind of the person that you looked at and said, "Okay, that's the standard. That's what I need to do. That's what I need to be. That's where I need to get." like were you working alongside pretty famous technicians or artists or creatives that you were like, "Oh, I can't believe I get to work with them and then they they kind of upped your game in that." >> So many of those. >> So many of those like every time you work with somebody, you're just amazed at who they are. You know, there was a guy um that gave me my first job. Uh his name was Steve. And Steve used to yell at me all the time like, "I can't believe you doing this and this and this and this." And I'd go to work and I felt like I wanted to cry, like I was going to get fired every single day. >> Yeah. >> But it put this standard up there and this I mean this was this felt like hazing, right? It's not like we do now, but it was just rough and I felt like I was failing all the time. And so I had to get better. I had to had to go I went home and studied. I went made sure that I delivered on time. And then Steve said, "Okay, why don't you go down and work at Weda because I'm going down there and I know a lot of people. I've worked there before. I'll introduce you. That was my second job. And he said, he told me something really important. He said, you know, once you've worked for weather, you can work anywhere in the industry. And it's those kinds of things that happen because you learn and you grow and you and you um connect to people in the right way. And so, um I I think that really uh I had some great mentors and great examples of um of awesome technicians, awesome artists that were, you know, and these people all won Oscars. They had their own Oscars on their >> shelf >> on the shelf. Um, but there was a moment when I realized maybe that's not what I want to do. Maybe I'm not as concerned about having an Oscar for best visual effects on my shelf as I am about telling my own story or starting my own company. >> Yeah. More entrepreneurial. >> More entrepreneurial. I had that itch inside, you know, um because I thought, okay, well, it would be really cool because you there you you you can stay and work on the biggest films of all time, but sometimes it's just better to own something that's smaller, but you own it, man. >> Yeah. So, get me back. So, you when did you gra Did you graduate both major? 2003. Did you graduate both major? >> I never finished my computer science major because I got the job offer and I said, you know what, I'm out of here. >> And that that was what 200 what? >> 2003. So that year that when that so in 2003 and then >> you you're going through the job when did you launch your startup? >> I launched you merged on you worked on projects and for other companies for a while right >> how long was that period of time jumping to studio progressing in your career getting those skills >> that was nine years >> nine years from 2003 to 2012 >> to 2012 and in the background what I'd done is I'd started writing right I started to express myself and and writing is really an entrepreneurial activity. Yeah. Um, one of the tricks about writing is that it is the lowest barrier to entry possible. It's very, very small. And so, suddenly, you're competing with everybody. Now, fortunately, I started in a time when self-publishing was um had a huge stigma associated with it. And so, what I did is I started writing books, but then I found this great agent in New York. She was at the top um agency in New York. They represented uh you know, some Nobel uh prize-winning or Pulitzer prize-winning authors. Um, and they we went on submission with my book and she loved it and we had we had, you know, almost a potential offer from Disney. We had a potential offer from Random House. And then something happened. Um, one of the editors at Random House said, "I love your book. I want to publish it. I want to um have it illustrated throughout and we're going to do this." And so two weeks later, we said, "Okay, let's get all the contract um you know, this is my agent doing all this work. get get all the contracts with Ever with with Everchaster when it was just a manuscript >> and she said, "Let's get all the contracts together >> and um the editor said, "Oh, you know what? I'm so sorry. I am now leaving the company and so we can no longer do the book." And the deal was dead just like that. And I remember that was my birthday >> and I just almost exploded. I said, "You know what? I have got this creative itch that I want to scratch. I've got to do it. can't let other people stand in the way. I can't keep waiting for everyone to say yes. And so there was the rise of self-publishing at the moment and my agent said, "What if you tried it on your own?" And I did. And I went and I published it. And there were actually a lot of there was actually a lot of backlash because they said, "Well, where's your publishing company? Where's the editor? Where's this? Where's that? This book is terrible. How could you do this?" But lo and behold, I published it and I, you know, put together a marketing team and I and I um and I, you know, had it edited and and what what is publishing but a collection of talented people um doing the different tasks that needed to be done to get a book out. And so that book came out as a top 100 Amazon book on the day that it launched. >> Wow. >> And it was passing up all of these, you know, I have I have this screenshot of it passing up John Gisham's book >> um for, you know, bestseller status um that day. And so that was really cool feeling and I thought wait I can do this I'm an entrepreneur right and so that's when that started um and I went down that road and um we had some good success but ultimately it was a road that was very hard it was hard to make that business um financially stable for >> So is that when you launched Future House Publishing 2012 so you quit your job? >> I quit my job. I quit my job and went for it and I was newly married. I would I'd been married for two years. But did you publish it under a publishing house a future house publishing? >> Future house publishing publish you didn't like because it might not have existed was did it exist where you could just self-publish. Amazon would print one book at a time. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. And that's what we did. In fact, we started that way um and it was published under future house publishing. I I got a um a sole proprietorship and and just published under that. And so to everybody to the rest of the world, they thought it was a publisher. Yeah. >> And that's that's all that mattered because the cover art was excellent. Um the book was you know produced very well and so um uh the um >> and you started looking at other authors too didn't you? >> I started looking at other authors and I started bringing those authors on. >> If I remember when I first met you you were always kind of scouting other things. >> I was all scouting other things. In fact I've published we published over a hundred titles. Okay. >> Um now but uh it was print on demand in that time and so we did print on demand and then eventually I was selling so many copies that I was buying them by the hundreds from Amazon. printing on demand, which then made sense for me to go to an actual printer. And so we printed off 5,000 copies, sold through those, printed off another 10,000, you know, then printed off other books. And so altogether um of my books, I've sold about 40,000 copies. >> Um and that's really uh meaningful because that's a lot more than some published books. Most published books come from a publisher. >> Yeah. If you do that in hardback, that'd be a bestseller. >> Oh yes, absolutely. In fact, you probably need only about >> 6,000 books sold in a week to become a bestseller. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> To New York Times bestseller. And so highly competitive. >> It's highly competitive. There's a there are a lot of different books coming out now. In fact, you need fewer books now because there's so many books published. >> Um but to stand out, you need uh >> Okay. So, Future House Publishing is 2012 and you did and you published your story and had some success and then you started publishing for others and it was a book publishing thing. >> That's right. >> Is that what you did for two or three years? I did that publishing books. >> I did that for a couple of years. >> You didn't work in other multimedia. >> I didn't work in other multimedia. It was just that. And then it was about 2016. Uh so about four years later when >> And then you came to our boot camp then. >> I came to the boot camp and I learned a lot. And then I did do some uh multimedia projects then. Uh in fact I went back to work on at ILM on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and that was a that was great because and I thought you know what that there was there was kind of a turning point. I realized the amount of effort that it would take to keep that publishing company going and growing. Yeah. Was just hard. And when I saw when I realized in three or four months I could make more money than I made all year. >> Yeah. >> At that offices. But how did you go from that and all a sudden then now Future House Publishing you transformed into >> to Future House Studios, right? Which is a different company. Yeah. Um two separate entities. But um >> but you use that brand name. >> I use that brand name. Um, and so what happened was I went to go work in LA and I was doing VR and AR and I got really into the game engines and the gaming world and started to understand that as well. And then I was hired here in Utah. There was an entrepreneur had raised a bunch of money to build a pinball machine company >> um called uh Deeproot Studios. Okay. >> And uh Deep or >> physical pinball. It was so cool. And so he hired me and a number of other colleagues that I'd worked with in the past to create the um video Yeah. >> And graphics on the back of the pinball machine cuz they had a lot of them have that screen and it was so >> we're kind of into pinball. We actually Oh, are you What do you play? Which ones are your >> god? Monopoly, Indiana Jones. Awesome. Awesome. So, so this entrepreneur had had a ton of capital, but we were burning through it so fast. And it was scary to me, especially after having been through your lean startup training. >> And um uh I was in charge of managing a big portion of the studio. And so I had about, you know, probably like 45 people reporting to me as we were trying to build this thing >> for pinball. >> Pinball for pinball graphics. And that was not counting everybody else who was in charge of their >> big business. Stern and those when they do they do like a a a trailer like a movie trailer when they release machines. They do. >> It's like I mean Yeah. >> But pinball. So the trick is Stern I think and and total I think it's about a $40 million a year business. Um, and so the trick is you build a machine and it's really you're really doing well if you sell about 7,000 of them. >> And so that's a lot of work to put into something you're only selling 7,000 of and then they become sort of collector's items and all those other things. But um, so it is it is a tough business, but Stern's doing really really great. >> There's only room for a couple of players. >> Um, so you know, lean startup methodology. We were working on 12 pinball machines at the same time. We should have done one. get that out, go and made it great. >> But our attention was divided and also meant that the headcount was too big. The idea was that we were going to build a Pixar of Utah. We were going to do all these things. >> So premature scaling. >> Premature scaling. Premature. Absolutely. 100%. And I kept raising the flag, guys, this is premature scaling. You know, I don't even know if my job is justified here. Um why don't we just do this on a smaller scale? Get these out and save our capital runway. >> But there were big ideas and there were big plans and and we weren't aware entirely. uh we didn't have insight into the financ. It's hard to turn around. >> It's really really hard to do. So um but uh uh that uh that entrepreneur who was doing that his name was Robert and I'm still grateful to him though because um as many as as many difficulties as that company had and we had furloss and there was a lot of people suffering and it was very it was very psychologically difficult you know do I come into work even though I'm not getting paid because I think I'm going to get paid again but I believe in the dream of this studio you know and so that was really tough because you have artists who all want to believe in a dream and they want to make something like this work and they want to make it really really cool. Um but uh they and you know they ran into some some trouble later on and ran out of funding and >> and ultimately it fizzled out or >> ultimately fizzled out. So what happened >> without getting anything out to market >> they got one machine out but not really to market. I think there were a couple people who might have bought one but it was mostly a prototype and then it's they were just so close. >> Oh man, >> they were so close but there were there were um you know some problems with where the funding which I won't I won't get into all the did before you brought Future. >> This is what I did before Future House Studios. So I >> And what year did you launch Future House Studios? >> That was uh 2020 right in the middle of COVID. So what happened was I was working at the company. They were running out of money and u people had approached me before I had this um good friend his name is Chan and he had approached me and said hey I need to have a team to work on virtual concerts uh with a company called Wave XR. and um we were building virtual reality concerts and uh so he said, "Can you come?" And I said, "Well, you know what? I think I'm going to need to leave my job to do this. I'm going to have to leave my job because I could bring those contracts here to the company, but the company just wasn't stable." Yeah. >> Um and it wasn't safe to do so. And I brought contracts there prior to that. And so, um what happened is I talked to the boss, Robert, and I said, "Hey, I want to go do this." And in fact, what can happen is I can do the contracts for you that I was doing here. we can take some of those employees off your plate and we can employ them. And he said, "Sure, here you go." And as part of that gave me some hardware and equipment to get going. And so that was extremely helpful. So we started making virtual concerts. We built a Justin Bieber concert with Wave, um, The Weekend, John Legend, uh, Lindseay Sterling. We helped with all these concerts to create the visual effects. And we were doing it at the time in the Unity game engine, then moved to Unreal Engine. Meaning meaning wait like you would attend a VR thing concert or this was the graphics behind them in the actual real world concert. >> You would you would put on a headset. >> Yeah. >> Or sometimes they just did it on the phone. You would look at the phone and there would be a virtual concert that you were watching. And so this >> during because you couldn't go to concerts >> because you couldn't go to concerts. >> Think how much the music industry lost when you couldn't go to a concert. >> Yeah. >> So much money. So the coolest one was the Justin Bieber concert because Justin Bieber was standing there in a mocap suit and he was driving his avatar in re in on the stage the virtual stage and everybody's watching through their phones or through video and they had done some of them with headsets and prior concerts with headsets. So you were in a virtual reality headset >> and they would watch Justin Bieber and he would say hi to them and then their faces they would choose a couple people to put their faces up on the wall and he was like in this dome and they would be talking to Justin. He'd say, "Hey, how's it going?" and they'd say something back and people would type things and it would show up. So, it was like a video game, a massive multiplayer video game, but it was a concert >> and you see some of those things like happening like the Travis Scott concert in Fortnite was one of the biggest um moments in Fortnite. So, people were really into this. They were they thought this is really cool and you can see the videos on YouTube >> at that period 2020 to 2022. We went through this period with NFTTS, metaverse, now we never say the word metaverse. >> Bad word, bad word. We used to brand ourselves as a metaverse company because it gave us advantages. >> So tell us what happened there. So why was it all smoke and mirrors and no real business? Because that's what I was seeing. I just did not get NFTTS. I did not get the metaverse. You know, we had pitches people coming to say we're going to create this metaverse and sell real estate and billboards in it. But so why did metaverse go from one of the hottest things to all a sudden a pariah? >> Okay. I'm so glad you asked because I was in the middle of it. Our company tell us >> ebbed and flowed and was thrown about because of the metaverse and and also had moments of success. >> Facebook changed its name. >> Facebook changed its name right >> now. They're abandoning that kind of >> they they really are still Meta. They're still >> It's so interesting. Um so really what happened was this idea took hold as the technology and as VR um grew that we could spend time in these virtual worlds together. It really took hold in COVID because we couldn't be together. Yeah. Zoom existed. And when you're on a Zoom call, you're essentially in this idea of a metaverse, right, where >> uh people can interact and they can influence their environment and be together. And so um Mark Zuckerberg thought, okay, this is amazing. And he's always been in virtual reality. And he put a lot of capital behind it. He said, I'm investing10 billion dollars into the metaverse. And that word suddenly became so hot. Now, it had been hot before that in certain circles, you know, back in 2017, 2016. >> Then it became pervasive. >> Then it became pervasive. The reason it failed was because everyone loved this idea of a virtual world, but they didn't understand that you have to have something to do in the virtual world. In other words, the metaverse already existed in certain forms. There was something called VR chat where people would get together and they would build games. They would just chat. But it was so interesting because it had it it was an indie subversive underground project. >> Yeah, VR Chats was huge. I think is still huge. >> It's still huge. It's still huge. People still go to VR Chat, >> but it's not Ready Player One. >> It's not Ready Player One. So, everybody proposed making essentially their own version of VR Chat. And I think investors got really excited because it's easy to sell when you're selling the visuals. You look at these things and it looks so cool and everybody wants to be a part of it. But they didn't study the competition. They didn't understand that metaverses already existed in the form of VR chat, in the form of Recck Room, in the form of well essentially Fortnite. >> Yeah. >> You know, the best and most successful metaverses are Fortnite and Roblox. >> Yeah. The games >> they exist because they gave people a sandbox wherein they could build games and interact with their friends. But >> what was so strange is nobody acknowledged those as metaverses. >> Well, I think I think everybody there was this huge rush to own the metaverse. >> Where was the foundational metaverse at? Who's going to be that owner? And so do you count metaverse as VR? It's VR, but it was also and that's and that's where most people got hung up is they said it had to be VR when they didn't realize, you know, you know what, the best part of the metaverse, the most successful part is happening outside of VR in Roblox, in Fortnite. >> So, what about augmented reality, AR? Where is the status of AR and VR right now? >> Well, let's look at it through the lens of Pokemon Go. Um, so Pokemon Go popped off in 2016 doing very well and you can see how successful Pokémon Go has been because they still relatively good is aren't they? >> Oh, absolutely. >> Yeah, they're still Pokemon Go is um doing better financially now than they ever have been >> u because they figured they really figured out what their users want to pay for and that's that's very important and critical. And they just sold to Scopely and there was a massive deal. Um Scopely makes Monopoly Go. They make a lot of other um mobile games and they purchased that. Um >> so Niantic who? >> Niantic Niantic made Pokemon Go. They were sold it to Scop. They were an alphabet company. >> Um and then Niantic recently split off into Niantic Spatial and then Niantic Games and then Niantic Games was was sold to Scopely. Okay. Got >> it. >> So Niantic Spatial really focuses on the AR but they're pushing more toward the enterprise. um they realize that there's a lot of there are a lot of applications you know like imagine you're in an Amazon warehouse and you put on some goggles and then suddenly you can see which boxes the one are the ones you're looking for an arrow can move along the ground and show you where to go. Um, a lot of these things were tried in the consumer marketplace. You know, oh, how do I navigate Walmart to find the thing that I need or how do I navigate um, you know, uh, you know, do I have my glasses on during a movie and it's going to give me like metadata about the movie, right? you know, but the fact is that people did not want to pull out their phones, you know, and that it's it's a very awkward um action to be holding your phone like that because it just doesn't feel comfortable. You know, we were producing storybook shorts in AR way back in 2017 and I said, "Hey guys, these are really cool." And they won BAFTA awards, >> but I said, "These are really cool, but nobody's going to use them." You know how I know this? because I go down and I show my kids and they love this kind of stuff because they're the target age group, but they only last about 30 to 60 seconds before it's hard to hold the phone and peer around this thing. >> Um, you can look at Magic Leap. That was one of the AR darlings raised over a billion dollars. >> I remember that. What happened to them? >> And Magic Leap collapsed. Now, they're still around and they're still raising money, but they're all moving toward enterprise. They're figuring out, hey, there's a there's a um application in factories, oil rigs, warehouses, >> and you say this is augmented reality. >> Augmented reality. So, you're still putting >> I always understood augmented reality had more business potential than VR. Actually, >> I think it did, but um really in an enterprise area because consumers got kind of tired of it. You know, we used to we used to do a lot of gimmicks where it'd say, "Hey, the new Spider-Man movie is coming out." Okay. someone would hire us, say for example, to work on Spider-Man, uh, sits by you and then you you're like standing there with Spider-Man in augmented reality. You take a photo, but it's interesting for about 60 seconds and then >> and how how is VR doing um today like Oculus and games for Oculus and all those headsets, >> they are surprisingly doing better than ever >> really. >> Um, it's it's not the growth that Mark hoped for. Yeah. >> You know, it's not the huge explosive growth. It's not taking over our entire lives, which was the promise of the metaverse, right? >> It has just been steady growth. You know, the >> they're a fun gaming environment for people that want to fully immerse themselves, but they're not for everybody, and it's not going to >> dominate our lives. >> It's still not the preferred video or gaming platform, right? I still feel feel like console and computers are what people are >> absolutely 100% using. It's kind of it's kind of it's I have an Oculus and it now sits on my shelf. My kids don't even pull it down anymore because it's just the the kind of novel feeling has worn off. >> The killer app is it say the killer app for AR and VR as far as consumer entertainment has not yet been found. >> Is that true? >> Well, I I would argue that the killer app for AR was Pokemon Go. >> Okay. >> Um, you know, that that really I mean they just knocked it out of the water. I think they sold their company for I think it was 3.6 billion. 3.6 six billion and and they were they were >> you can look at some of the numbers out there >> that they were doing a billion dollars a year in revenue um on that game. What's interesting about that game is let's let's define AR because it used to that game you have pass through through your phone and you see the Pokemon and then you catch that and you can see it in your room. >> Yeah. >> Most users turn off that feature. That's one of the first things they do. They turn off that feature. I remember playing Pokémon Go a lot when it came out and honestly I leveraged a lot of that in my marketing and through Pokemon Go events because it was such a hot thing for my own business. I remember being very heavy on the phone, right? Like it would wear down your iPhone at the time because it was such a >> it's such a battery. It was a battery hog and a memory hog and it just took over your phone. So I yeah, I do remember all users being like, I'm not even going to catch I'm not even going to use the AR. I'm just going to look at my screen. >> Right. >> And it also meant that you didn't have to go like this. Yeah, you just go. You could and uh you didn't have to lift up, move around. You just casually do it where relaxed. Now, the Ray-B bands that Meta is putting out, that's going to make a difference. >> Those are cool. >> And that's already >> Have you seen Have you worn those a lot? >> I've worn those. Yeah, I've worn those. >> Have you worn those yet? They're I think they're very practical. >> They're very practical >> and they're actually adoptable. Like I like >> they've done very well, too. >> And it's because the form factor is you put it on your face and it's very easy to use. We don't want things that are interrupting our lives. >> If there's too much of a quantum leap in human behavior required, that's tough. And this one's not that big of a leap. >> Yeah. I think we're used to screens and we're used to glasses. Have you seen the Snapchat glasses that they came out? Oh, those things are so bad. Have you seen those? They look like just thick pieces of >> puzzles. They're getting better. They're slimming down every year. >> No, but I just say I think Meta is one of the only one actually doing it right where it's like, okay, this is like it's like very >> All right. because it's Oh, did you want to go? I want I want to skip to the next big technological thing. Okay, just so we don't just tell. Okay, so I count May 2023 as the time when AI hit the mainstream. Okay. Okay. >> Uh and by the way, I I just on the way in here, it's crazy what I heard on o on uh all in podcast because I was all in podcast about how open AI just had an AI escape and he's really scared now. What's there? There there's some really fascinating things happening. But let's go back to May 2023 when it's that from May 2023 and then man for us what we've seen December of 2025 through present has been like a 10 to 100x impact of AIC. So >> on what you deal in gaming movies all of that what's been the impact of AI and what's happening I'm going to ask it with this context. I have recently seen some video examples that are 20 minutes or longer in length that are so photorealistic or whatever and you're seeing carrot and mashups. >> He sent me this one just yesterday. It was pretty insane. >> Which one was it? >> It was the It was like Arnold Roboc. I love those. It said everything and and it ended with Darth Vader. >> Darth Vader. It was the title of it was they all knew they were were in for it when Darth Vader literally it was literally just 20 minutes of just pure action. No talking. It was just like >> from every action movie hero. >> It just makes you feel so good. >> But it looked real. Yes. >> Okay. For it looked movie real. Okay. My qu I started thinking to myself just yesterday. I go are we going to need actors? Are we going to need writers? Are we going to need all these gaff people? whatever the hundred thousand people working on movies are cuz this it I don't know what it took to produce that and obviously and you know whether it keeps the context and the characters look the same or if they end up with seven fingers on their hand sometimes all that stuff I'm sure that'll all get improved and work on but what's the future of gaming and movies and entertainment when these creations don't require all the time and labor and also will we get inundated with so much content we don't I I think a better question is what's actually changing like what's actually here right now because I feel like that is not the real scenario right now where it's like prompt to 30 minute amazing cinematic video right >> so yeah let's let's put that in context okay so um are their jobs going to be lost absolutely absolutely you know >> the gaffer you said this will affect actors this will affect writers in some ways um this is going to affect everybody but it's also going to create new jobs. Um, will it create as many jobs as there were before? Maybe, maybe not. Um, but, uh, you know, if we rewind a bit to when computer graphics came out, >> yeah, >> there was a similar reaction. >> No, no, there is >> to I I can't believe that Michael Eisner >> fired all of the traditional pencil drawn animation animators. And I loved I love pencil drawn animation. I love traditional animation. And I had gotten into animation because I love that stuff. But I didn't realize that there was a fight. There was like this feeling of like you guys are stealing our jobs. You guys are stealing jobs. >> Pixar was the biggest change in animation >> moment in history that I remember in my lifetime. >> And so the thought was all these artists are going to lose their jobs. But guess what? More artists were employed than ever before. >> Yeah. But isn't the same thing happening in animation, visual effects, multimedia as it meets AI and the promptingness of the visuals that's happening in technology? Like 5 years ago, it would take how much time to build an application, software, SAS product, right? I'm talking months of time, hundreds of thousands of dollars, tons of man-h hours, however many lines of code, and now it's done in 20 minutes. >> It's amazing. It's so cool. >> But is is that not the same thing happening in multimedia? the same thing is happening. >> So, okay. So, how is it not because I I teach in a CS program at BYU? Okay. >> And the whole department is up in arms about what is happening to the jobs of our graduates. What is the future of a CS grad these days? Right? Because it's like it really is impacting the normal production of software >> especially impacting the junior level. How can you defend that answer of like oh I think there actually might be more jobs or you know are we going to lose jobs or not you know >> I think I think in the short term we are going to lose more jobs we are we're absolutely losing more jobs because technology becomes so efficient that you don't need as many people to do it but there will be jobs that change I don't actually have an answer for the entry level right now I'm not sure we're going to see how that plays out but what I do know is that I've seen so many industries grow and this ind you know you look at the let's take the film credit analogy Um, the film credits on the original Star Wars were like a couple pages long. Now they are dozens and dozens of pages long with all the people that are employed to make those things. AI is going to shrink that. But I think it's also going to grow new opportunities for people. >> Yeah. And and history proves that 19 late7s 1980 when the personal computers, the micro computers came out, they thought they would wipe out all the jobs. And there's article after article. Okay. the internet hit that thought they're going to wipe out all brickandmortar companies and that it was you know they're the internet was going to be the metaverse or the world for e-commerce and stuff and it took forever until co till e-commerce even became a super significant part of the sales I mean most sales were brick and mortar and it still is but they it it's it's gone up since co a little but this whole thing every new technology had people fearmonger what's going to happen I believe too just like you're saying that AI I will settle in as a part of our reality just like the internet. The internet was massive change to humans. AI is going to be at least as big maybe bigger than the internet itself as far as hitting the and impacting commerce, business, communications, interpersonal relationships. Look at what the internet's allowed us to do. and then mobile, having it on mobile when it hit in the 2000s when the iPhone came out, the smartphone, all these things. But all their predictions of doom and gloom and wiping out jobs and stuff, none of it came true. It created bigger opportunities, more productivity. That's so exciting. How can we think AI is going to be different? I I can see it could be different, but how could it be so transformally different that it will make us because humans will think of how can I make money with AI? What do I need? What's my needs? Okay, if we become more leisurely society, because A's doing more of the grunt work, then there's going to be no need for travel and we're going to have to have I mean, we're going to have to build things to make people have fun. I mean, I'm just trying to think out loud that I don't think it's going to kill all the jobs. >> I don't think it's going to kill all the jobs. It's going to massively morph the industries and sectors that are transform the jobs. Absolutely. And there will be people who lose along the way. >> Yes. >> And there will be people who win along the way. Let me give an example in my own business. So, we are a small >> um gaming studio and I will say this, >> what's the size? What's the size? How many do people do employ? >> We have about we have about uh 20 people, 20 to 30 people at any given time, right? So, we have a couple of employees and um we set out to build a game and so we're building a game that we call Swords of Secret and it's a it's essentially a map traversal game where we're hiding real swords in the wilderness for people to find. And this is part of them battling monsters, visiting, you know, the wizard at the tower down the street, etc. This is a game that nobody's really >> Is this game out yet? >> This game is in beta, so people are testing it right now. >> If people want to get one of your games right now, promote it right now. >> Swordsofsec.com. swordsofsec.com. Go become a beta tester. Join the Discord. Tell us what you think. We love to hear from you. But this game, I would not have been able to launch it as an entrepreneur if it weren't for the advantages and speed that we have gained in AI. So in other words, in this case, it has made more jobs. And here's why. >> Um because you can make the argument, >> so so it's 10xed the ability of my developers to complete things. And so you can make the argument, well, then you should have hired 10 more developers and given them jobs. >> Well, >> but I'm an entrepreneur who doesn't have the money to do that. >> That's a stupid argument, right? >> It's a very stupid argument. I don't think people understand that this building this game has provided jobs for I can count on on my hand a couple of people that I wouldn't have been able to employ. >> Yeah. >> And I wouldn't have been able to pay if we weren't launching this game because I know that if the game was too expensive, we couldn't have completed it. We couldn't have even started. And so we are deploying some of the extra capital that we have in this area because it's now an opportunity because we can finish something bigger, better, and greater using AI. Economics always wins. Always wins. >> So you're just saying that all this new AI technology that's enhancing and empowering the artists and the visual artists and all these technologists is not taking away their job. It's actually empowering the studios to do more, produce more, build more entertainment, build more media, build more games, build more movies. It's going to enable everybody to just have more basically. >> Yes, absolutely. That's what it's currently doing. Now, are there job loss in other places? Yes, there are. But there's also new upstarts of new people being able to experiment and try things and do new ventures where they're paying people and they're hiring people. Do you do you see a future where there's probably huge competitive studios like more than just you know uh what's what's uh George Lucas's studio called? >> Uh Lucasfilm. >> Lucasfilm and all these ones that you have you know worked at in the past. Do you see just a lot of studios entering into that arena because it's so accessible via AI and so accessible via the prompting to the end outcome or product of multimedia? I'm just saying is is the arena just get larger because there's so much more to produce and so much more >> still have to produce winners. >> You still have to produce winners. So there's something interesting. >> Doesn't it allow the average techn average average technology, you know, focused visual artist to enter into that arena now empowered with all of these tools where it's easier to create >> about supply and demand. There's only so many consumers of entertainment. So you're >> if there's a thousand more movies made because it's going to be so easy. There's not a thousand more viewers. >> Nope. We only want the We only want the top 1% of things that we only can consume so much. >> So, are these top studios just going to get more powerful or is is it going to diversify amongst >> I think it's going to shift. I don't think it's going to diversify that much because there's always um there's always a consolidation. Yeah. Yeah. But what you see happening is, you know, some artist up in Idaho who's never met anybody from Hollywood now being able to sit in their basement and leverage some of the AI tools. And I will say an artist because a lot of AI stuff that you see is is very sloppy. You know, they call it slop. It's not interesting to look at. But you're watching this show >> and and the one you talked about with the the action sequence with Robbo Robocop and Darth Vader. I guarantee you that took a lot of work and a lot of mastery and a lot of manhour and non non-mechanical work which means non tech techy work which is taste and storytelling and direction like that's where the humans can actually empower themselves right but but if you humans say I want this exact scene for three minutes and instead of spend all the money set up a set do all this they render it in AI that will be the savings of the that will be the savings. >> Yeah. But the humans behind it will make the difference. >> They will make the difference. So, in fact, I've seen some of the way and because we've actually built AI films and demos ourselves and we've seen some of the ingenuity that goes into it. You have an actor, you know, that artist who's acting the scene out and then you're mapping it onto their actions. You have um storyboarding happening. You have a lot of concept art that goes into that and then is used. >> This is what people don't realize, right? It's not just a SAS firm. They call it SAS again. and they think SAS, but to actually have a finished SAS product that is commercial ready, production ready, idiot proof for users that they can't break it and launch it in the marketplace and have users is still hard. You can whip up an MVP on the weekend >> that works for you and just you because you designed it, >> but to put it out to thousands of users and have it really work. >> Oh, there's there's a lot of engineering that goes >> like you can whip out you could whip out a little threeinut video movie using today's tools. We could all do that this weekend. Probably take us a few hours. But to get a featurelength incredible quality movie is probably going to take a lot of work. >> It's going to be a lot of work. I don't know if it's ever going to be where we're just giving a prompt and it cuz right now there's problems with memory context and like >> the characters also I kind of watched that movie yesterday. The characters kind of change their face a little bit. I I think computing will be advanced enough if we get 20 years out. I think it really will be prompt to 2our cinematic movie. >> Let's give him because we're so late on time. I want let's give him time to say where let's just take the topic of movie sense. Where is the movie industry going to be in 10 years? >> Or even on top of that, where is future house studios going to be in 10 years? Like where where do you envision you going? But yes, I'd love to hear where the industry and movie. >> Let's take movies. Where do you see it in 10 years? And then how are you going to play a role in that? And then we want to end on one last question too. I'm going to give his question. You usually ask >> one last tip for any entrepreneur watching is if they're a budding entrepreneur, what tip you'd give them? So >> where are movies going? Where's Future House going? And your tip for entrepreneur. >> Okay, let's start with movies. Okay, where are movies going? >> So, there's going to be a lot of consolidation because there will just be fewer people who are needed to make these movies. But we've already seen this industry shift with some of the tax credits, some of the uh moving of things overseas. So, you're going to see uh movie that come from people who typically wouldn't have had access to Hollywood to go through the Hollywood machine. You're going to see new stories that get told. You're also seeing going to see a glut of new films. >> Slop. >> Even more slop. Even more slop. Now, if you know, years ago, I was always excited for that one animated movie that would come out each year. And now it's dozens. They come out every year, and I don't even watch them anymore. I'm not interested. >> We are also going to have filters. There will be so much content made that there will still need to be studios or other places that consolidate this content. You see this with social media. That's why you have influencers. They they gather followers. Same with movies. We're going to have movies from all sorts of places, which is going to be fascinating and fun. >> And Angel Studios is doing that really, really well. >> They're doing it really, really well. And so, um, you're going to see uh, yeah, new creators um, and a ton of content that we'll just never watch. >> Yeah. >> Um, and we'll >> we can't we will not be able I can't already consume all the content >> and I don't want to. It's just there's just too much. There's just too much. Okay. Second, >> quality content. >> Quality content will rise to the top. >> That really like I just mentioned the movie House of Dynamite. I just watched Painkiller, another great movie series. I'm just saying >> the quality ones get word of mouth amongst humans and then they will rise to the cream of the crop. >> It's that top 1% that you want to tell your friend about have you seen this? You got to see this. Just like right now what you said with with the other question was where's Future House Studios in 5 10 years? Like where do you see yourself going as you evolve around AI and adapt AI and where's that market going to take you? Well, Futur Studios is really in in a fun place right now because we've um done >> really well for ourselves as far as being a a vendor and doing client work. Um but now we're starting to build our own products. >> So our own scale our own IP, the things that we can scale in markets that we've identified that we think we can be successful in. >> So kind of like an old dev shop that would do software engineering on contract for another company. The dev shops can now I'm going to build my own proprietary. I'm going to go make my own SAS. Yeah, exactly. 100%. That's what it is. And so we have we're going to take as many atbats as we can afford to do. Yeah. >> Um and so we're going to leverage AI to do it. >> So you you talked about this game. What's the mo what's the thing maybe in the next 5 to 10 years that you're most excited about to go and tackle and and actually conquer or econ that probably wasn't economically possible before. Now you have AI. You you're talking about the whole industry is going to do more, create more. What are you excited about to maybe go out and do over the next five, ten years? Anything come to mind? >> Uh, well, we're really excited about this game that we're building, leveraging AI to do that. >> One step at a time. One step at a time. But yeah, I I'm just saying like thinking down the road like that. It's also enabling you to do more, right? >> It's enabling us to do more. So, we'll build more games. Yes. >> We'll build more products. Um, we we may build um film uh and television or things that we can launch, but we're going to do it in a sustainable lean startup way. Right? We're going to start with snippets. Do we get some traction with the snippet? Do we get >> distribution and engagement are still vital? Now, even now that content production is more less of a moat and more easy, >> it seems like distribution, distribution, >> engagement is the trick. It really is. It really is. You've got to have good content, but there's there's so much good content out there that we never discover. Yeah. >> If only it had the right distributor. Right. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Last question is, because this is an entrepreneurial podcast, even though I love this segment of all of what that we've been talking about today, >> what is maybe your number one tip? Like throughout your whole career, thinking back what you've learned, how you've learned it, what you've come across, the lessons you've maybe had throughout your career, what are you telling the budding entrepreneur that's listening to this podcast right now? Here's the thing I would do or I would focus on or here's the number one tip. >> If you're starting out, I would go spend some time in the trenches. >> I would go spend some time in the trenches at a really good company where you can learn a craft really, really well. It doesn't mean that you're going to have to be doing that craft for the rest of your life. But every time I look at um some of the successful startups, that entrepreneur was an engineer or an investment maker or they understood something on a level beyond uh >> we call that founder market fit. >> Market fit. Turning an expertise into a scalable business into a company. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah, >> because I see so many entrepreneurs who come out of school and they say I want to be an entrepreneur in what >> you know just an entrepreneur >> and their founder Mark Fitzer they don't understand the industry the lingo all that stuff so that's really wise advice and this is a fun fact related to your tips so our viewers and listeners just know yeah increase your founder market fit in whatever you launch as an entrepreneur >> whatever it is design or development or animation or marketing or consulting whatever skill you have I think this is a great podcast for those who have that kind of skill and looking at Adam as an example, turning that into an actual functioning business model and creating and monetizing that skill really well. >> And that f that fun fact is this. Somewhere in the 90 percentiles, most startups are actually started by a person who's working for somebody else and thinks they have a better idea or can do it better. >> Okay? Then they go launch a company and find out they knew how to make widgets, but they didn't know how to be a widget entrepreneur. like their old boss was being and they it's it would be good for them to learn and watch and say why is my boss behaving the way they are. Oh, they must know something I don't because sometimes they think I'm going to go make my own thing because this >> I don't have this stupid boss. He's holding me back. >> Yeah. Do you know that often those people that do that three years later they're going maybe my boss wasn't so stupid after all. >> Right. Right. >> Because there's a different skill. You know, in fact, I was explaining this to my team just this week. They they wondered why I hadn't completed a certain portion of the game, and I said, "Because my job is also to keep you guys paid every two weeks." And that requires that I go to these conferences, I go I go speak to people, I go network, I go find us, the thing that's going to happen to us 12 months from now. >> Keeping payroll checks from bouncing is a very important function. >> It's a very important function. It's a very important function. >> This has been great. Thank you so much. It's seriously been awesome. I've loved hearing your story and thank you for coming on. >> Um, again, I think >> you're welcome. Absolute pleasure. >> I think what I love the most about it is the intersection between, again, what I said at the very beginning of the podcast. So, you're a storyteller, you're a creative, but you found a way to intermingle that with technology and entrepreneurship and building your own startups. It's really, really cool. So, thank you. If you've enjoyed this, give Adam a follow. He's very active on LinkedIn. He's on all the social medias. Go download his game or become a beta tester for it. Um, you know, give us a like, subscribe, uh, leave a comment, reach out to us, reach out to Adam. We're here for you guys. And we >> also take the boot camp. >> Yeah, come on. It really, it really changed the course of my entrepreneurship. Thank you, Adam. Take the boot camp. >> Yeah. No, thank you for coming on. It's been a pleasure. Um, >> we Anything else? We're done. All right, we're out. I think we're going to sign out. Thank you. Byebye. Rock next to Rock.