Matty Gay

I always had this mentality of like, I don't exactly know what I'm going to do like professionally, but I'm just going to work hard, meet lots of people, like do the best I can, and anytime a new opportunity presents itself, if I feel like it's a good opportunity, I'm just going to do it. Yep. Yep. And that's what led me like literally I can like draw a little map, you know, and it's crazy to look back at, you know, I'm sure like everyone's had that experience because like if I wasn't there at that 1 Million Cups and I didn't meet Evan, I didn't work, you know, it's just crazy. >> actually the product of uh the choices we make. Literally, we could all go back in our life and change one little decision we made and we might not even be anywhere close to where we are now. >> [music] [music] >> Welcome back to the Startup Ignition podcast. Thank you so much for watching. We had a great episode with our last 49th episode with Blake Masters of Paleon Ventures. We have an amazing guest today. I'm Tyler, you know me. This is John, you know him. But who you don't know is standing or sitting right next to me here, Matty Gay. >> Yes. >> Matty, thank you so much for coming to the podcast. >> Of course. >> a busy dude, so I really appreciate all the time you're taking to come here. >> know, the craziest thing is my wife's 4 days late on having our baby. >> I can't believe you actually >> weren't sure if this was going to happen. >> I texted Matty and I'm like, can you come do a podcast? He's like, well, my baby's due any moment now. I'm like, well, I'll tentatively put you, but if the baby comes, feel free to cancel. And I think that's more important. >> number five. >> Baby five. That's crazy. >> It's actually funny to see people's reaction. >> I know. Because and my wife is a couple years younger than me, so I mean, we're How old is she? Oh gosh, She just had her 30th birthday party. Oh, wow. >> year, so You guys are not wasting any time. I know. We wanted to be young, you know. >> We My My wife and I said the same thing, 50 and free, but it doesn't turn out that way, but that was our With the grandkids. >> Wait, so how old's your oldest? So, Mason's my oldest. He's eight. Eight to to newborn. >> Yes. So, we're going to have five kids eight and under. >> Holy moly. I know. I'm not jealous. >> think it was one of those things we just jumped right into it, so >> Yeah. It does like I don't know any different, and I love it so much that That's a busy household, and you're a busy entrepreneur, and you've made success happen. It's People Humans, if they put their mind to something, they'll just make it happen. Like a lot of people would say Yeah. Five kids in eight years, and how does he have time to be a successful entrepreneur, but you're going to tell us it's possible. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Yes. Uh and marrying a good wife is The partner's key, huh? >> Probably number one. >> Yeah, your partner in life is a big deal. Yes. Um so, this is our 50th episode of the podcast. >> Yeah. >> So, Matty, we have a special guest for number 50. I've I've seriously been excited to have you come on the podcast. >> been working working at it for a while. >> It's been a couple months, yeah, but you you've been a busy guy. I want to dive into that, because I heard you Did you go to Masters? Do something >> went to the Masters? >> time in my life. That's crazy. I got to hear about that. >> Yep. Um but first, let's let's intro you. People need to know who Matty Gay is, okay? So, Matty Gay, I have a bio for you right here, and I'm actually going to read it, so I don't mess anything up. So, uh >> Okay. Uh here we go. Matty Gay is the co-founder and CEO of Primo Golf Apparel, a Utah golf brand that launched in 2020. Is that right? >> Correct. >> been six years? >> It seems way way longer. >> I mean, not from >> I mean, you know how it goes. >> That's not a dig at all. That's like, wow, I feel like you've been way more established than that. Well, thank you. >> That's pretty cool. >> Yeah, yeah. And so you you started that with four cousins, built early momentum around a sharp wedge around the golf joggers. I remember when you came out with those. >> Um obviously fashion trends go in and out. I don't know how popular or how of a mainstay those joggers are still at Primo, but you have so many more products than that now. >> For sure. And uh but before Primo, I know you grew up golfing. I know that Maddie's a really good golfer. I know you Have we golfed with you? I don't know if we personally golfed with you, but I've been in the tournaments with you and you are a very good golfer. >> your handicap? Uh officially 2.7. I've never I've never reached scratch. I've never got to a zero handicap. >> What is Evan, by the way? Evan Evan Tashima, who we all know is the CEO. He's been on the podcast. >> Yes. I be I mean, Evan would love to say he beats me at everything, [laughter] but I also love to say thing say the same thing about him. >> You You Your handicaps are very close to each other. Yeah, yeah, but I beat him. >> [laughter] >> Easy. That's [clears throat] a And that impresses us because he wipes the floor with us, so yeah. So So before before Primo, Maddie was at a company that we we were super heavily involved with at FourUp Golf, um which was a tee sheet and POS golf management software for the golf courses and golf industry, where you worked very closely with that team. >> My top angel investment of all time. I've heard you say that. >> Yeah. I mean, I attribute so much of where I am to FourUp. Wow. >> Like Yeah. I love to tell Evan because I mean, Yeah. maybe we can get into this more in a bit, but but Primo would not exist if >> If it wasn't Really? That's awesome. >> 100%. That's a cool attribution. Um but before that, I I don't I really don't go back much further back than that here, but I know that Primo has really established itself as a brand it within the golf world, really probably one of the biggest fastest growing golf golf brands in the industry. Yeah. I I don't know what kind of claim I just made there, but something like that. >> we definitely like to consider ourselves in that world. Of course, there's other brands that we see and that we we look up to in some ways and find ourselves being competitive with in other ways, but but we have been able to grow quickly. >> And I know you're really you're getting awesome partnerships, expanding into men's, women's, children's, accessories, everything. I know you've done a lot with Grant Horvath and you've done Phil Mickelson and you've gotten obviously something at the Masters doing something there or just attending or even just whatever you were wrapping Primo there, but like it really establishing yourself within the industry and it's all come relatively quickly. I know this year you were named a 40 under 40 here in Utah. >> Yes, that's right. Thank you. That was cool. >> Yeah. And I know you were named that too, weren't you? I was I was 2025. I'm old news though. You're 2026. So, yeah, you you got you got to >> How old are you? I'm 38. Okay. Yeah. So, I'm just a couple years older than you. But, yeah, so Hey, can I do a shout-out right now? >> Yeah, do it. To We haven't even gotten through your bio, by the way. Go ahead. >> want to say cuz you mentioned the other brands. So, I just I think I said this to you as you accepted to be on here that what's interesting, I'm a old guy, long-time golfer, and Travis Matthews has been a brand I love, right? And use and all that. And then I've liked Nike and other things, too, but I literally this I mean this so all our viewers and listeners, if you're golfer, if you want to get gifts or whatever, and this is not being shilling or anything. You didn't know I was going to do this. I just the Primo products, they fit well, I like them, uh they're Travis Matthews and Primo are my tied for first place on my favorite brands in clothing and golfing. And that's that's I'm not saying that lightly. That's a big deal. >> We we said this pre pre podcast. We have Startup Ignition Primo collared shirts that we ordered like a year ago and neither of us wore it today. So, that's >> Can I say there's some you know, you don't want to I get it. We had several meetings beforehand. I should have gone back and done it anyway. >> [laughter] >> But, I I really mean that. This is the If you you will not be disappointed when you try a Primo product. >> Thank you, John. So, so, okay. I'm so happy Matty's here because you're actively building, actively growing, actively in the trenches of building a startup, getting your brand off the ground. You're obviously a lot more mature than you were 3 4 5 years ago, right? When you started this thing. So, you're not at the beginning stages anymore. You're you're much more progressed. But, it's cool to have current operators in the room. And not that we haven't had that before cuz we've had really cool people sitting in this chair where you're sitting. A lot of them are exited. >> Yeah, they're exited. So, it's really cool to have a currently building successful CEO in the room. So, I'm excited to have you today. So, thank you, Matty, for coming. >> We finally got through his bio. >> [laughter] >> But, now I'm going to take a few more minutes to do something else. Every episode we do an icebreaker. Uh where I spring a game on our guest. Just a fun quick little game here to kind of break the ice, exactly what it said to do, and just get into the mode of of podcasting and get comfortable. So, I have a game that we're going to play with John and Matty. It's going to be called favorite foursome, okay? Okay. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to give you four prompts, and you're going to tell me what your favorite thing of those or person of those prompts are, and that's going to be your favorite foursome. Okay. And we're going to get to know both of you pretty dang well cuz these are some interesting prompts. Okay. Okay? So, are you ready to play favorite foursome? Here we go. >> Favorite foursome. Okay, so, first one, and I want Dad, I want you to play, too, okay? Here we go. One current pro golfer. Who's your favorite pro golfer right now? Um Maybe I'll play, too, cuz I I actually like this game. >> [laughter] >> Who do you got, Matty? >> some guys, so like I feel like there's a little bit of pressure, but Family friend >> [laughter] >> Jordan Spieth. We don't sponsor him. He's always been my favorite. He's cool. He's cool. How about you, Dad? That's funny cuz I was going to say Jordan Spieth. Yeah, I just, you know, it was so magical what he did those one or two years back then. Yeah, I was just so and I just remember that and I I'm really wanting him to rise back up and get in the top ranks again. I find myself really cheering for him a ton. I think he's relatable. He just never gets it. He never He falls off. I mean yeah, I think that's what makes him so fun is that he hits these shots that we would hit. But then he miraculously gets up and down from the craziest spots, you know? But that that that was that to me from the days of Tiger Woods in the early 2000s to the mid-2000s when golf just went through the roof because of him, I felt that in the mid-2010s Jordan brought that back fervor around golf that had been missing for a decade. Does that make sense? And it's still in me 10 years later now. Well, and I think it is with a lot of golf fans. Yeah. Like there's a lot of funny memes out there of like people riding the Jordan Spieth roller coaster and like people are just Okay, so that is my answer. Okay, so we got two Jordan Spieths. Okay, that's crazy. Next Did you say yours? Next person of the four of the foursome favorite celebrity. Who Did you say your favorite golfer? I didn't hear. No, I'm not going to play cuz it will take too much time. Favorite celebrity, go. But okay, so non-golfer. Who's your favorite celebrity? Who Who you putting in this foursome? This sounds so weird and he's not even a golfer, but this is I feel like so much of my life is influenced by my kids. Yeah. Um the first guy that came to mind, Benson Boone. Oh, that's That's cool. So Benson, we not that we have any connection to him, but we ran into him at a Maverick Yeah. a couple like months ago and my kids they were like right at the peak of listening to his music. And so it was a cool moment cuz and he was really cool. So like I have an appreciation for him. Yeah, my claim to fame is I dressed up as Benson Boone one time and gifted my two daughters Benson Boone concert tickets. >> Yeah. Mustache and everything? Yeah, well, wig and the cut-off shirt and everything and I surprised him with concert tickets. I posted it on Instagram. It went semi-viral. Maybe I'll Maybe I'll flash a clip right here. But that's my only connection to Benson Boone. Okay, how about you, Dad? Celebrity, who you putting in? There's so many to choose from. I don't know what to do but I'm going to go with Kim Emily Blunt. Emily Blunt? >> Yeah. That's That's out of left field. I like Emily Blunt. Yeah, I like Why do you like Emily Blunt? >> She I just um well, my favorite movie of the last 10 years um uh you know, it was Tom Cruise and Emily Blunt and they were Edge of Tomorrow. I just think it's a genius movie and when you watch it I I when I was young I watched Young Frankenstein seven times in the theater, okay, at age like 12, okay? So since then but I've seen Edge of Tomorrow over 10 times. >> That's crazy. >> And and it's just an incredible I love time travel movies. >> Emily Blunt's amazing. If you're listening, Emily, give us a shoutout. And by the way, tomorrow going to go to the new uh what is The Devil Wears Prada 2 where she's in it? Is she in that, too? Oh. Yeah. Main character. Okay, this this foursome's getting interesting. We've got Emily Blunt and Jordan Spieth over here. >> [laughter] >> Okay, and yours was Who was it again? Benson Boone. >> Benson Boone. That's a good one, too. I wonder if Benson's a good golfer. >> a good golfer. I think he's a good athlete from what I've heard. >> Yeah. All right, one creator, a creator, content creator, influencer, or YouTuber. Who you putting in? I'll let our guest go first, of course. >> I mean, I've got to go with Grant Horvat. >> I know, I knew you were going to say that. I was like, should I even put this in there cuz I know Matty's going to play say Grant. >> still like we've we've played a ton with Grant, but I need to know who this is, I think. So he's a he's a YouTu- he's a YouTube golf uh creator and he's now a co-owner in Primo. >> oh really? >> Yes, he invited him in and he is a co-owner and sponsored by Primo. >> been I mean, we can get into this later, but he's been one of the most crucial pieces to the puzzle. Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I actually met him at your Primo Cup last year. >> Oh, did you meet him there? Yeah. Yeah. Where I I think I first asked you about coming on the podcast. When was that? How When was the Primo Cup? Was that summer? >> October. >> October. Okay, it's only been a handful of months. So, six months I've been six months I've been trying to get Matty to come on the podcast. Not too bad for how busy you are. So, Grant is Grant So, yeah, I met Grant. He's a cool guy and he was he was very chill at that Primo Cup. He came out, talked to everybody. I think I had I'm a nobody I had like over a 10-minute conversation with the guy sitting at the tables at the lunch. >> genuine. >> crazy. Yes. So, is an entrepreneur a creator or are you just looking for influencers? So, YouTuber, TikToker, Instagrammer, who's your favorite creator? You got to have one. >> Well, creator would be an entrepreneur maybe cuz No, no, but creator, content creator. That's what that means. I'm probably going to just say group of four. So, we're talking foursomes, I love the All-In podcast team. Okay. So, who's your favorite All-In podcast guy? >> Um I like them all. Uh I'll accept that as a creator. Yeah. I like Chamath and Sachs the same, probably. Okay, so but we got one choice here. >> Freewheels great too though. See what I'm saying? >> got to do one. Number one probably going to be Sachs. Sachs, David Sachs. Okay, that's cool. Cuz he bought us out. Okay, yeah, he did. And one of a deal and we made some good money. Yeah, >> [laughter] >> I love that. David Sachs, if you're listening, thank you very much. Craft Ventures bought us out in one of our positions, but yeah. So, you got David Sachs, Emily Blunt, and Jordan Spieth. You have Grant. Who else? Uh Vincent Boone and Jordan Spieth. All right, you guys are you guys ready to complete your foursome? Here's the last one. One athlete, non-golfer, one athlete, any athlete. Has to be living, have to be alive, obviously. This is a real No, doesn't have to be currently playing. So, but they have to be alive. So, you can't say like Babe Ruth. That's what I'm saying. This is a true foursome. Like if you could put together a foursome, who would it be? Yeah. Who do you got, Matty? One of my favorite all-time athletes is Buster Posey. Buster Posey? >> he was the catcher for the San Francisco Giants. I grew up in Northern California. And so, the Giants were my team. >> Yeah. Um and they won three World Series in like I remember Buster Posey. That is so crazy. So, he was rookie of the year and oh, he was just awesome. He just played the game right. >> Yeah. You know, he was kind of subdued. He was never too over the top, but like you could tell how much he cared and loved the game. Yeah, that's awesome. >> So. That's awesome. >> Buster Posey. All right, Dad. You're a huge Seahawks fan. Who are you going with? >> Steve Largent. Is Steve Largent still alive? Yes. >> Okay. Sorry, Steve. >> [laughter] >> I know he played in like the '80s, didn't he? He became a politician. Yeah, '80s, '90s. Um incredible, set massive NFL records. Didn't look like an athlete, didn't look like he could play in the NFL and compete. He became one of the greatest You know, before Jerry Rice passed him up in a lot of the record books, he set all the uh the NFL records in receiving. And he's just and he's just a good guy, a good person. So, Steve Largent was a wide receiver in the '80s and '90s for the Seattle Seahawks. Yeah. We're we're originally from Seattle. >> and '80s. Was it '70s and '80s? Sorry. [laughter] Sorry. Yeah, even I mean, I was born in '87, so >> up his stats for when it was in the era he was in. It was incredible. Okay. We got some cool foursomes, guys. >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love it. I mean, if you could actually play that foursome, how cool would that be? I mean, let's make it happen. Okay, thank you for playing my icebreaker. That was cool. We got to know Matty a little bit more and obviously John over here a little bit more, too. But okay, let's get into the whole reason we're here. We want to get into Matty's story. So, you already said during the icebreaker you grew up in Northern California. Yep. So, you went to high school in Northern California? >> What city? Yeah. It's a little town called Ripon, which is no one's ever heard of it. It's the almond capital of the world. Oh, almonds. So, every year we have the almond blossom festival. >> Oh, okay. Um but >> Where is that located compared to San Francisco and San Sacramento? So, like straight east of San Francisco, pretty like just over an hour, about an hour south of Sacramento. Okay. So, they call the Central Valley. Yep, I know. Um Modesto is one of the bigger city It's not huge, but >> Costa County around there somewhere? I'm not exactly sure where that's at. I don't think it's super close. But, uh but yeah, it's a great It was a great place to grow up. >> Yeah. You know, and we were close to a lot of fun stuff, and we I grew up playing all the different sports. I was really into baseball growing up. Um but played played all the sports. >> Well, you had to have played golf. Did you not play golf? >> I did. Uh I got into golf when I was like 12 or 13. >> going to say, you you can't be a two handicap and not have played golf for a long time. >> helps to start that young. Yeah. You know, and so it's not like I was crazy good. Like I didn't play in college or anything, but I always just had a really genuine love for the game. Yeah. So, I I worked at a country club in Ripon. As a high schooler? Um like right after I graduated, I worked at >> What did you do there? Just like clean carts. >> Really? And worked in the I was like a dishwasher. Okay. [laughter] You know, like It was literally whatever I could do to get free golf. >> Yeah, that's awesome. >> And it was like I could play any day of the week. There weren't any restrictions. >> Wow, that's unusual. Yeah, cuz like Riverside's like only Mondays. >> it's only Sundays. >> Oh, is it only Sundays? It's only Sundays. But, I could play anytime. Yeah, that's cool. So, I and I was like I So, I graduated high school, went to a year at BYU. So, Brigham Young University brought you to Utah. That's your connection to Utah. >> I studied advertising. Oh, cool. Um and then how I got involved in the startup world, I had a a mobile app. It was It was called Flip. Mhm. And it was for buying and selling stuff. Oh, cool. And so, we did all the startup world stuff. So that's like why I was very familiar with Dev Mountain. Oh, yeah. >> And and all the like I feel like you would come in and speak in our classes and things like that. Um Flip was great. Ultimately didn't like turn into anything big, but we you know, we released an app on iOS and Android and we got I can't remember. 25,000 downloads. >> would buy low, sell high from garage sales, Facebook classifieds. Yeah, what what's now Facebook Marketplace? Facebook Marketplace, yeah. Exactly. So it was a really fun idea. I thought it was going to be what made me rich. >> I know pe- I know people that do that though. They Yes. >> So I wonder So this was a tool to manage that activity. >> Exactly. So it's kind of like an Instagram feed you scroll through, filter to you know, what items you're looking for. So people would actually post their items on there. That was the idea. It was to actually compete with like a Craigslist. >> Exactly, yeah. Oh, okay. >> Okay. Yep. Got you. Yeah, so So that was an incredible experience. I mean it lasted for a while and um Did that like your whole university career basically? Um probably for about like a 2-year stretch. Yeah, all that. >> Yeah. And so at that time when we were kind of winding that down, realizing that maybe it wasn't going to turn into something big. >> Yeah. Um I I had gone to a 1 Million Cups at the Dev Mountain. Yeah, in the startup building. >> In the startup building. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Evan Shishido was there uh talking about Four Up. Oh, did he present at 1 Million Cups? >> Oh, he was a presenter, yeah. Yeah, and so after I was like, man, maybe maybe this could be if I get a job there, I might be able to play free golf. >> [laughter] >> That was the intention. >> Yeah, yeah. So I went up to him and at the time I was just working as a waiter at Joe Vera's. I don't know if you guys have been to Joe Vera's. >> Joe Vera's is good. So I went and talked to Evan and he was like, well, you you'd probably get a job on our software support team. So long story short, I I think that was 2050 maybe 2016. I I started working at at Four Up. Cool. So, and yes, skipping forward very quickly through that. It was the best thing and >> So, how many years were you there at So, let me maybe set the table. >> years. Let me set the table. So, One Million Cups for those that don't know or aren't familiar, they're events where local startups go and present and pitch their idea and talk about what they're working on. >> over the world Wednesdays at 9:00 a.m. Yeah, so it's called One Million Cups cuz the idea is at the same time you're all drinking a cup of coffee across the world. And so, it's One Million Cups, everybody gathering about startups and ideas. Um there's five or six chapters in our state of Utah. >> but go look it up. I'm sure there's one there. Look at what happens here. A lot of you know, activity, a lot of uh networking, a lot of >> barnstorming events. The Startup Grind is another brand of that does those, things like that. Yep. Um so, yeah. So, you One Million Cups and then also um Four Up that we're just assuming a lot of knowledge. Four Up was a golf software company. We talked about that in the bio of of Maddie's bio at the beginning of the podcast, but you went there as a customer support Yeah. basically. So, you went app startup, waiter at a restaurant, customer support rep at a tech SaaS company. >> Yeah. Wow, that is >> Studying advertising. >> Yeah, studying adverti- all while studying advertising at Brigham Young University. That is that is crazy. >> I think you know, not that I am have all this advice, but if there's one piece that I've learned was that I just was always involved. I always wanted to just be meeting people, wanting to be pursuing my own little startup. Yeah. You know. Like I I always had this mentality of like, I don't exactly know what I'm going to do like professionally, but I'm just going to work hard, meet lots of people, like do the best I can, and anytime a new opportunity presents itself, if I feel like it's a good opportunity, I'm just going to do it. >> yep. And that's what led me like literally I can like draw a little map, you know, and it's crazy to look back at you know, I'm sure like everyone's had that experience maybe like if I wasn't there at that 1 Million Cups and I didn't meet Evan. >> Yeah. I didn't work you know it's just crazy. >> the product of the choices we make and choosing to go to 1 Million Cups, choosing to inquire about a position at Four Up. I mean Yes. It's the choices we make and the actions we take and if you and you go back literally we could all go back in our lives and change one little decision we made and we might not even be anywhere close to where we are now. >> Yeah. 100%. >> That's crazy. But um let me ask you so you start did you take that job in the customer service arena? So you became a customer support person and then what was your career like at Four Up and the experience and walk us through that before we get to Primo. I'd like to hear about how that was. >> So when I initially took the job at Four Up like I mentioned I was working as a waiter. Um so it was kind I was kind of continuing to do both. I phased out of being a waiter just went to Four Up but I still had the startup thing going with Flip. >> Yeah. And eventually that fully faded away. Yeah. So and then I was you know getting set to graduate. So I I go to Evan and I'm like hey you know I've been here for about a year. Um like I'd love to stay here but So long story short he made me I became the software support manager. Yeah. There was a team of probably I don't know eight of us or something like that. So I started managing the software support team. And at that point I think Four Up probably had when I started I think there were like 15 employees. And then by that point maybe there were 30 of us. >> Yeah. And so I was continuing to try to do my best at everything I was doing and then they offered me the opportunity to become a junior product manager. Oh he got on product manager. >> Yes. So then the last about 3 and 1/2 years of my time at ForeUp was as a product manager. Um which was great because the products I was over was like the tee sheet, which is where uh it's the software that the golf course uses to manage all their tee times. And then the online booking and uh the the food and beverage software. So, I was like so I was going to all these golf courses and interacting with them and understanding how these head pros run their business. And so my mind was just really like in the golf industry. >> you. You're an addict. Yeah, yeah. You're [laughter] constantly around golf. >> oh, I got to go down to St. George and visit these golf courses? >> Oh, man. Exactly. So, so that really whether I knew it or not at the time, it was really putting me in the golf world. >> Oh, yeah. So, when the time came and I had the idea to do Primo, it felt very possible. Yeah. >> In addition to like being like very in the weeds of seeing what Evan was doing growing ForeUp. Yeah. And you know, he became a close friend of mine. So, to see someone that like I feel close to like doing it and you know, I mean not What do you What do you think of him as a CEO? I mean, I I don't think there's anyone I could say higher give higher praise to than Evan. >> Yeah. You know, and I I try to remind him of that because there was a point I was just telling this the other day. Um I was I was going to take a new job. I got an offer from from a different software company. I mean, you know how it is at the beginning of your your career you're like just trying to make more money and >> the $5,000 raise or whatever. Yeah. And sometimes taking a new job is the quickest way to Scale up. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. So, I got this offer and I went to Evan and I'm like, Evan, I'm I'm taking this. And him and I are close. And he's like, is there anything I could do to keep you? And I'm like, no. I've already made up my mind. Yeah. And then he long story short, we sat there for like an hour and he convinced me to stay. And he he matched their offer and and gave me some stock options which was a huge deal for me at that time. >> And like wasn't something super common at at that stage. >> was very mature by then. I mean they've been around for years. Yeah. >> And you usually don't get stock options deep into a company's >> I'm sure those panned out nice for you. Yeah, it was great. Yeah. And [laughter] so I look back at that moment, you know, talking about those moments and >> if Evan hadn't fought to keep me like I I would have gone, you know, I probably I like to think I'd be in a good place in life but like I wouldn't be in this place which is where I want to be. >> Yeah. That's such a cool story and great insight, too. >> So yeah, that is. And so and then the year 2021 happened when Four Up was sold. Yes. >> That was a big time. March of 2021, something like that? >> Yeah. So the crazy thing is Primo we started we had the idea for Primo at the end of 2019. Oh who's we? So me and my cousins. >> Okay. So for those who don't know Primo means cousin in Spanish. >> Oh yeah. >> So that's where the name comes from. >> I speak Spanish. I didn't even I know. >> I didn't even realize that. >> the cool part. It's like if you don't know that it just sounds like a premium or Yeah, that's kind of mean product. >> Yeah, that's what I thought. Prime, premium, yeah. Exactly. So at the end of 2019 I I So the joggers, the joggers are how we got our start. >> Yeah, I remember. Is that kind of the first initial thing where it's like, "Hey, like there's not really cool like clothes in the golf world." >> Four Up though and then started this on the side. >> Yes, exactly. So I was working at Four Up. So at the end of 2019 we're having the I'm having these ideas that I share with my cousin. Like, "Hey, I'm seeing these joggers are becoming more and more popular just as a general style of pant." But in golf a lot of them didn't have belt loops. So you couldn't tuck your polo in. Oh yeah, they were elastic a lot of them. >> Yeah, like drawstring. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. So, I go to my cousins, one of my cousins worked at Fourlaps. And if anyone is familiar with Primo, you've probably seen him. He's like the big buff guy on our website. Anyways. That that is a big part of it because long to cut ahead a little bit, when we first launched, we ran this one Instagram ad and it was my buff cousin. It was like people couldn't look away. Anyways. >> [laughter] >> Um so, I was at Fourlaps. We start sampling some joggers from manufacturers and and we're just figuring out as we go. We go on Alibaba and we just we're trying to find a manufacturer that makes a similar product and then can add the tweaks that we're looking for, you know. So, we get some samples and then we get into the beginning of 2020. COVID hadn't hit yet. So, we get to what is it? March of 2020. COVID hits. >> Yeah. Yeah. And at that point we had like just got a sample that we loved and we're like, we should do this. But everyone's leaving, going back home, not staying at the office. Like what what's what's going to happen with the world? What's going to happen in the golf industry? >> touch the pins at the golf course to take the pin out of the hole. >> What a crazy You all you had to do is hit the pin. >> Yeah, you just hit it as hard as you could. I love that era. >> [laughter] >> So, we had we were in a very interesting position, my cousin Jason and I, because we both worked at Fourlaps. And I will never forget Evan doing a company call and being like, hey, COVID just like we're not at the office anymore. We're not exactly sure. We have this amount of money in the bank. He like really wanted to assure all the employees that we'd have a job. And so, but but it was just such a weird time. Was golf going to get less popular or more popular? And as many people know, golf just skyrocketed. >> Yeah. It was like the only thing you could do during the pandemic. >> how many rounds of golf I played in 2020? Cuz it shut down in March, right? And we couldn't do anything. More or less than, let's see. >> Just think I mean huh? Way more. >> 175 >> god. No [laughter] joke. My friends and I that's you know we're all we're members of Riverside and you know we all have a little money and with free time and do what we want and and there was not anything we didn't start the venture fund yet. Not much to do. 175 in 2021, 75. Oh my gosh. 2022 and beyond went down to about 10 to 15. Yeah. [laughter] We don't play as much anymore. So it was like the golden era for you. Oh my gosh and my handicap went down to 14. Dang. >> That's good for me cuz I'm not a 14 anymore. >> [laughter] >> But so I got to ask Matty because like you go again we've already talked about your track record here of all these jobs, you know, and just weaseling your way weasel is is a bad word but like Hey, I think it's fair. you know, getting talking your way into the four up >> Navigating. navigating your way into the four up role, right? I totally would have thought you would have gone software. Being a product manager, being in SaaS, you know, really working closely with Evan the CEO of a SaaS company. Like you would think your next step would have been like some kind of software play. >> let's let's so you were in March COVID hit and golf took off. Yes. You didn't get a I kind of interrupt you, sorry. What was the What did you What What happened cuz then it was 1 year later that four up sold. Well, I'm just trying to hit on the point like Well, to touch on both of those points. I mean my career path was software. I I was so excited to become a product manager. That that career path felt like a dream come true because I was excited I would meet other product managers and there meetups that I would go to and it was like man, I can make really solid money here, you know? >> Yeah. And so the intention was software. You know, there was never an intention to specifically go to apparel. Yeah. It was more more than anything just an idea. It's like, oh, this is a good idea. Did you Were you looking for something specifically in the golf realm more? >> No, like that's the thing. It It wasn't like I had this grand plan. It was really just like, hey, cousins, I think these joggers would be cool. Yeah. Let's just get a sample and try this out. >> of was a problem solution. It was like, hey, there's not really a cool pair of pants >> Yes. In addition >> loop. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's at its core pretty simple. But, I think there are things that gave me a lot of confidence to do it. One of those, like I mentioned, was was being with Four Up and seeing it grow. Yeah. >> Um but, another part of it was, you know, on Instagram I'd see the other these other brands run these ads for their products. And in my mind, I'm like, I could do that. Like, that's not that hard. Like, I with the advertising program at BYU, like, I know a bunch of photographers. >> yeah. >> Yeah, so I was like, if I had a cool product, like, just take some pictures and I can try to figure out how to run some ads. >> Yeah. What's the timing here? So, 2019 you came up the idea. When did you first launch a jogger? So, June 15th, 2020. Okay, so, during co- the Yes. >> When when everybody realized, oh, this is not just going to be a month. This is going to be a long thing. >> What I was going to mention was that because we were at Four Up, we had we got to see, maybe a little bit before the rest of the world, that golf was exploding. >> Yeah. So, it gave us this confidence to launch the brand cuz we had the thoughts of like, should we or should we not? >> as CEO, your employer, he was fine with you doing this on the side? >> Well, you know, it's funny. At first, we were all at home. Yeah. So, it's like, I was getting all my Four Up work done. Yeah. But, we weren't going into the office. >> Yeah. So, it was like, you know, Yeah. >> kind of do what I want a little bit. You know, as long as I was making sure to do what I was supposed to, and and I you know, I one thing that was so great about Four Up was like the team that we had there. We were all so close. Yeah. Like I remember during COVID we would one time we I think we went to the McDonald's over here. Um or I guess it's like this one really close to where we are right now. And there were like 15 of us that just brought lawn chairs and we all sat like 6 ft apart. Cuz you had to abide by the COVID rules. >> Yes. >> [laughter] >> So there was a lot of respect as far as like the work that we were doing and a lot of trust. And I never like I was always very open with Evan about stuff. And he was always very supportive. >> Yeah, he's very entrepreneurial. He's like, "Yeah, go do your dreams." So June of 2022 First Joggers and what happened with that product launch? Your first product. >> had we ordered 250 pairs of our dark gray jogger. How many pairs? 250. 250. And we we ran a pre-sale. We had one pair. We had the one sample and that's what we used in the product photography. So we ran this ad of my buff cousin with these pants that are too short and a little >> of pants were his size of pants apparently. >> Yes. The one >> Exactly. And so then we ran this ad and the 250 pairs sold out in less than a week. So we're like You got something here. Yeah. And it was crazy to see the reaction because joggers now are more acceptable, but at that point it was it was kind of like it was this really controversial thing. We'd get these super negative comments on Facebook and Instagram ads. >> This is against traditional golf. >> Yeah, and way more vulgar than that. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Things I probably shouldn't say on here, but we used to like take screenshots and send them to each other. >> it. No, I'm just [laughter] kidding. Things along the lines of like, "Oh, you're wearing your sister's pants." But just like imagine that. >> [laughter] >> Well, I I know that Primo's kind of is strategy. You guys really heavily lean into content creators and and influencers and sponsorships and your all up and your ad campaigns are awesome. You get the videos and the marketing. Yeah. I'm sure you see some crazy crap online. Like >> was at first especially. Yeah, people would So, we we started working with some some content creators early on. >> us that. So, 250 first order sold out in a week. Yep. So, then we instantly had to order in a few months. >> Yeah, yeah. So, we had to order like instantly we had to order more. And we weren't going to be getting So, this was June 15th. We weren't going to be getting it until like August or September. So, like on the website and like we're we're learning as we go, right? Like we We use Shopify. So, I was just like piecing this this website together. I'm not a developer, but like they make it pretty easy. >> Yeah. Googling everything, just like trying to figure it out as we go. So, we sell those 250. We order more. And on the website it was like you We would show like the estimated shipment date. And for the most part all those customers, like they were really cool about waiting for it because they're so excited about the product. And so, when we finally started shipping those first ones out come August or September. We were so nervous cuz we were going off of one size sample and we ordered a bunch of different sizes. And we sent everything out and all the sizes were wrong. What do you mean? >> Everything. A 32 fit like a 30. 30 fit like a 28. >> They were too small. >> So, they were too tight. >> Yeah. By the way, my first impression of Primo was that it runs small. Yes. Like for me Nike shoes run small. I and I know that about Nike shoes and I would say, "Okay, well Primo just run small." Yeah, which I think generally is still a like >> true? A little true. Yeah. But especially with those first ones. So, >> [laughter] >> you know, it's like >> get a lot of returns? Well, that was the thing. We We were so naive. Like in my mind I didn't even when we sent all those first ones out, I never even had the thought cross my mind that returns and exchanges were a thing. So, we start getting these emails of like, "Hey, um this doesn't fit right. This doesn't fit right." And it was like such a dagger to the heart. It's like, "How could they not like my joggers?" Yeah, your baby. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah, this is going to be such a great episode for CPG people and tangible product people on our cuz a lot of times we talk about software. So this is going to be golden. So keep going. We want to hear these stories. Yeah, so so we start getting all these emails and we're like, "Crap, what do we do?" We start measuring and we're like, "Ah, we should have caught this." But so what we started doing is anyone that was like a 34, we'd send them a 36. And we just had to make do for those couple months during that transition while we ordered a new batch with better sizing. But the awesome thing was the like the percentage of customers that were returning rather than getting a refund was really, really high. Cuz they were just exchanging, you mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sorry, sorry. Exactly. Exchanging versus refunding. Um because they were getting it, they're feeling the material, and they could tell that they if they were the right size, they would love them. >> Yeah, they actually wanted it. >> Yeah, so they're like, "I'm willing to wait." Yeah. That told you a lot about it. That's also a very good signal. Yeah. Right, cuz if if everyone would've been like, "Just refund me my money." Like that would've been so discouraging, but it was like the opposite and by tons of people. It was like, "Just I I'll wait." >> So you just had to pay the shipping back and forth to get them out their new product, but other than that, you kept and retained all the revenue that you made from those sales. >> were the Exactly. How big was the second order? >> [snorts] >> Um I believe we were like 200 150 and then we did 500 and then we did 1,000. We kind of just kept >> first one was one SKU and if people don't know that means a uh store keeping unit or shop keeping unit. I think SKUs is that's what it is. But and that means cuz when you have just for our viewers and listeners to understand this language of uh tangible products and and these type of physical products. So a SKU like you have the joggers in medium or joggers in 32 waist, that's one SKU in one color. So gray jogger 32. Wow. If you had a gray jogger 34, that's a different skew, right? And to Is that correct? Correct. >> Okay. And so, you your first order 250, was it one skew? No, it was so >> a smattering of sizes. >> We did. And one thing that really set us apart early was that we had different lengths. Oh, okay. >> So, a lot of joggers only come in one length. >> So, 32 by 34 and Exactly. Because if you know, if you happen to be between 5 11 and 6 2, then the jogger like a one length jogger would fit you great. But if you happen to be like 5 10 or shorter or 6 >> had to really do a lot of averaging. You could your first 200, 500, then 1,000, you couldn't go out to the extremes or you'd be holding that inventory out >> Exactly. So, You had to do the right number in the middle. Yeah, and ChatGPT didn't exist then. So, we couldn't just be like, "Hey, can you make a size order breakdown for me?" >> [laughter] >> We had to be like, "Okay, I think this one will sell more. And Oh my god. Okay, so that what caused that error the size being off by two? And then I want to So, during this up to 1,000 cuz this is the beginning This is what our listeners love to hear. Yeah. What What What caused that error? And also, what was the other What's another one or two things that just went wrong and was a big surprise? So, what would what I would say caused that error is we we had ordered some some samples from the manufacturer, but also some other brands that we liked. And we kind of went off this one specific brand sizing. And we didn't very We just thought, "Okay, >> to their manufacturer, you just like their sizing. >> Yeah, we just thought this sizing would be good. So, we're like, "Okay." Cuz I mean, I was not I don't consider myself to be like an apparel designer, but I was doing all the design. Like, I was creating all the tech packs. And like we have these old spreadsheets. >> pack? Okay, yeah. So, a tech pack I mean, essentially think of it Think of it as like a a two to three page PDF of all the product specifications. >> Yeah. So, I'm pretty sure John John Richards of Nomatic came on our podcast and he he used that terminology, too. So, that's like a standard thing. >> So, it's like a document that you give to the manufacturer so they have all of the details. >> everything about the product. Okay, cool. But, so you like this other brand, but you didn't go to who was manufacturing their stuff, you went to another manufacturer and didn't realize it wasn't going to match up. >> Yeah, exactly. >> [laughter] >> So, we have like, okay, here's the waist opening, here's the you know, the rise, all these different the ankle opening. And we like super over simplifies simplified things. Like, I'm sure if you went to like a legitimate apparel designer >> made assumptions. Yes, exactly. So, we were leaving too many details up to them. Um, which is you know, I mean, it taught us a lot, of course, but that was the main reason that the sizing was off is cuz we didn't have the experience and we kind of just dove headfirst. So, it's like I don't regret it. So, thinking back to 2020, what other big thing that you go mad at? That Cuz this is a zigzag. It's not a smooth process, is it? It's choppy. What's another choppy thing that happened? So, one thing that comes to mind, on one hand is something that we would never do now, but we did it and I I think it worked out and that's that we had this ambassador program. And we we were were really trying to figure out how to get the word out. And so, we wanted to create an ambassador program where people could rep the brand, share it on social media, and we created this system that with huge discounts. It was like, if you had I I There's like you could get up to 60% off if you had 20,000 followers on Instagram. If you had five, I don't remember what it was, 10,000 you could get 50% off. Like, huge discounts that we would never do now, Mhm. but we just were willing were we were willing to do it to get as many people buying as we could. >> And that turned out to be kind of a goldmine because we had you know, tons and tons of people that were cuz they had to post about it, to all these things to be part of the ambassador program. And so it was a headache though because there's so much manual communication and manual tracking of who is actually posting like they're supposed to. Um but it's one of those things that I can't remember which startup book it it was but one of them talks about how sometimes you have to do things that don't scale >> Yeah. before you scale. And that's was like the story of our life is like this probably doesn't make sense to do later on at least in the form that it is. >> it manually the way you did, you also learn the ins and outs and the finesse and nuance of it all, yeah. And then you can automate and scale it later but I I would agree that's that's kind of at the heart of lean startup is you're not going to go say, well, I think this is going to work so I'm going to spend a lot of money building a system, equipment, set, and hire people. No, let's do it scrappy and have, you know, the hamsters running in the back to make it work and see if it works. >> me, yeah, at that point. So you crunch the numbers, yeah. To kind of go along the timeline, 20 June 15th, 2020 is when we launched and the idea between my cousins and I, there were four of us that started started the company and the plan was whenever the time came I'd be the first one to go full-time. And we didn't have an exact measure of when that would be but the general plan was whenever we felt like we were losing opportunities because I wasn't full-time. Which is a hard thing to define. Yeah. But going back to Four Up and that timeline, like beginning of 2021, things were really starting to pick up with Primo. We were launching a bunch of new colors of the joggers. We launched shorts, we launched belts. Wow. And you did all of this before you were full-time? Yes. Um I'd have to look exactly at the timeline. Some of those things >> January 2022 if people are following the timeline here? I know the timeline really well, obviously, but so did you even know Evan was getting solicitations to buy the company? >> There were rumors, you know, there were >> rumors. >> There were talks. He was a very tight-lipped, huh? >> Yeah, yeah. I mean, there were a few of us that were like especially close. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, obviously, Matson was a huge part of that. Um Cuz four up was growing like a weed. Yes. >> And cuz of golf. I mean, like what a period to go through. >> Right. Yeah. And there I'm like the luckiest person. If you talk to people that know me, I think they all would tell you that I'm like the luckiest person they know. And I have been quite lucky. One of those pieces of luck was the timing of Primo growing and four up selling. >> Yeah. Because it was right at that time. >> sold in March or April, right? >> Yes. And I went full-time Primo April. Literally within weeks. Of the sale. Of the sale. Yeah. Okay, yeah. [laughter] Yeah. There you go. So and Evan was so great. I mean, he knew what was happening. Yeah. You know, he could see it. He was so excited for us. So it wasn't it wasn't any sense of betrayal. If anything, it was sense of excitement for for what we had going. >> before you move on in the story, cuz I want to keep going on with this timeline, you talked about it's really hard to find that balance of when the inflection point is for for you to go full-time. So what was the indicator? What did you look for and like, "Okay, now's the time." What What told you that? >> it's kind of a funny story. Um So my parents moved from Ripon, California to St. George right at that time. And so it was like New Year's of 2020 going into 2021, we were on a road trip to California to go help my parents move. And we're driving through Reno, Nevada. We stop. And it was like 10 10:00 at night. So I grab a Red Bull. And at this time, like Primo's starting to do better. So is this is the story that I told my cousins when I told them I was going to go full-time. So, just bear with me a little bit. So, I grab a Red Bull and my kids are sleeping in the back, my wife's like asleep next to me, and my mind is just like racing of like I got to do it. Like I got to go full-time. Like if if I was full-time, I could start going after retailers. I could start getting more products out. I could start doing all like there's a laundry list of things that I could do that I couldn't give my full effort to with another full-time job at 4 up. And so, my mind is just like racing, racing, racing. It's like I wake my wife up and I'm like I got to do it. I got to go full-time. Like I And in that moment it felt like it it's hard to explain moments like that because Yeah. But for me in that moment, I was just so like How did she respond? She She is so great. Like she's like I trust you. You know, we we were >> scary? I So, that's I get asked that question sometimes and it We were very lucky that Primo was doing well enough to where when the time came cuz that was in January that I was having those thoughts, right? So, I didn't actually go full-time till April. So, the wheels had started turning before that. >> Mhm. Um but by the time that it actually came time to go full-time, I was I was able to continue to pay myself, you know, even just a little bit better than what I was making at 4 up. >> Oh, awesome. >> great. So, so it People ask if it was like a huge risk. >> Yeah, your transition was as nice as it could be, probably. Yeah. And and 4 up had just sold. So, there was a comfort level. Okay, so you're now out of 4 up and you're CEO founder of Primo full-time. Yes. And that's from April of 2021. Yep. So, bring us How did it go? What Where Where How's the So, feel free to stop me at any point. Yeah, go. So April 2021, the idea was the next person to go full time would be my cousin Jordan. So he came he was out in California. He was like a medical device rep trying to make that living. Started was starting to get some traction, but then Primo was going really well. So we eventually made the decision for him to come back. At this point we all of our operation is happening in my cousin's basement in Vineyard. And so Jordan comes back from California. So then it's just him and I that are full time. So we're we're continuing to grow, continuing to grow and then my cousin Jason went full time I think January of 2022. Did everybody move here? So they were So Jordan was the only one that had to move back. Jason was already here cuz he was at Four Up. So he left Four Up at that point. at that point the three of us were were full time and it just it was just moving faster than we'd ever expected. We ended up getting a warehouse just off of Geneva over kind of by UVU. And at that point it was really feeling like, okay, this is turning into something. Is that is that kind of the point where you're like, okay, this is going to be good. Like you started feeling it. When you went full time it was still like, oh, this could be okay or not okay. But then when your cousins came on those two came on and you were hitting momentum, you're like, okay, this is it. Yes, exactly. And right around the time that I was full time. Yeah, yeah, coming up on 2022. So one thing that I will say made us feel like there was a lot of momentum was So I went full time April and right after that cuz I had all these things that I was going to pursue once I went full time. So I had some connections at some different golf courses. So I called this guy that I know and we went and had lunch at Blue Lemon over by Shields which is now not there. Um So, we're talking about getting into his shop. And then I walk outside and I look at Scheels and I'm like, "Man, it would be so cool to be in a store like Scheels." So, I was like, "I'm just going to walk in." So, I walk into Scheels, end up talking to the golf shop manager, and end up getting our stuff in a few weeks later to the Sandy Scheels, and it instantly became the number one best-selling pant. And then they were they were started making recommendations to all the other Scheels stores. And then within I can't remember the exact time, within three or four months, we got a bulk order from all 30-plus Scheels stores. >> Wow. Wow. >> was a direct That felt like a direct result of going full-time. Yeah, cuz you're just like, "I'm going to walk in here and give it some effort and boom." You feel comfortable, I'm going to ask, but you don't have to answer is like just revenues, how are they growing? I mean, like when you like it'd be interesting to know when you went full-time what the revenues were that made you comfortable for that, and then how fast did it grow? I mean, So, >> and you you know, you're a private company, so you share whatever you want. >> Maybe I won't get super specific to where we are now, but I'll kind of talk about some of the stepping stones. Um so, in the first So, we launched June 15th of 2020. Um in that first 6 months we did about 250,000. Okay. And then I believe year two, what was it? I think it was about 600,000. And then I think the next year was around two, and then around six. And then just continued to go up from there. So, talk about I want the viewers and listeners to understand this important principle. How important are unit economics where you say, "What's my landed cost for this product and what I've got to sell it to and if I'm going to go retail?" Or do you do any DTC? And and then you have channel conflict if you price the DTC too cheap, you know all that. Talk just talk about what you've learned or tips you'd give them and explain unit economics as you understand it and what you'd give them tips on pricing. >> Well, it's funny. Um there's a lot of things that we have we just figured out as as we went. >> going to say that you got to have you had no experience in this whole industry. You've learned everything as you as you've gone on. >> Yeah, so a lot of times the decisions we were making as far as cost cost of goods sold um retail price Yeah. it was it was less about the unit economics and more about gut feelings which you know, isn't doesn't scale. >> don't get the unit economics right, you can't survive. Right. So, we would do our best research about like, okay, if this if this is what we're paying like it was very simplified for us at first. It was like, well, we probably need to make like the retail price probably needs to be like four to five X our cost. And >> And that's right. Like four X is the minimum. Right. You can't make a business work. >> Exactly. So, so we kind of used that at the beginning like, well, I think that's what we're supposed to do. So, and then in addition to that we were looking at our competitors like where they were pricing their products at. And and so yes, it's something that we at the beginning kind of lucked out with because we were just flying by the seat of our pants. >> physical product entrepreneur Yeah. you need to understand this and that cuz we often get people come to us and say, well, my um landing cost is $60. I'm going to sell for $149. I go, well, that's not going to work. Yeah. >> $60, you better be selling for 240. Right. >> Okay? Or you're going to have a hard time making a sustainable business. That's a true statement. Would you agree? Yeah. Four times, right? >> Absolutely. Especially as you continue to grow. Yeah. And so, you just need to stay true that. And and and so, a lot of entrepreneurs do a lot of work doing prototyping, figuring out a business and don't understand the basics of unit economics when you have a physical product that has a fixed cost, right? >> And we were lucky to be in the golf industry. >> Yeah. Because people are willing to pay more for things. >> Yeah, it's kind of a higher end industry. Yeah, I mean, if you get up to five, six, seven X, then you're you're printing money. >> Which we did in 2019. And yeah, and you're printing money because of luxury products and quality. There again, I said it earlier here and I'm not trying to feed you to make your head big, but Primo is a Primo product. It's a quality premium product. It's not cheap. It's not made cheap. You can feel it in the material. You can see in the way it's put together, the way it lasts, the way it goes through washings. >> Mhm. I'm just being honest. Yeah. So so >> [laughter] >> tell I know you said okay, when my cousin started coming on full-time and we got into retail, you got that Shields deal and you were like okay, the momentum is happening. Take us through the next milestone. What when did you then next feel like wow, we hit a new level? So >> Cuz you talked multiple millions of revenue per A year here and you know what You didn't tell us today. You told us six million so it's way over six. >> Yeah, so we know it's well beyond that and we know the sponsorships you have with a lot of these high-end, you know, athletes and people that you're working with. And I know probably >> Jordan Spieth. They sponsor Jordan Spieth. No, it's not Jordan Spieth. No, but it's who I want to. Oh, that's who you want to. I thought you said you did. Sorry, my bad. Phil Mickelson. But but um Yeah, it's just Phil Mickelson. Yeah, it's just Phil Mickelson. Is that right? Is that right? Is that right? Yes. Oh my god. >> Yeah. So what but what I'm saying is and I know probably Grant's whole deal took you to a whole new level. Is that the next What's the next milestone when you're like, dude, this is this is get this is becoming a true like Yeah. industry >> Yes. So social media has been so big for us. >> want to dive in that cuz you guys are so into the influencing content and the sponsorships. >> okay. So we had some really influential guys. There's a guy named Mac Boucher. He's a Canadian guy. He's lefty. You're a lefty, right? >> I'm a left- We're both lefty. Yeah, so was his brother. All three men in our family are lefties. Yeah, we're all lefties. Made baseball and golf very easy. >> [laughter] >> That's awesome. So, Matt, he's a lefty. Yeah. And he was huge on Instagram. And he hit these big slingers, like these big, you know, huge slices or huge draws, and he started wearing our stuff. He kind of launched around the same time as us, so we grew together in a lot of ways. And he would just wear the joggers. He wouldn't necessarily promote them. Yeah, I mean, sometimes maybe he'd say something, but a lot of times in the comments, people would be like, "What pants are those? What pants are those? What are the joggers?" And he'd share the discount code. And like, more so than you would even believe, people were asking about what the pants were. Like, they were so ready to be influenced. It was so crazy. And so, that was a huge part of it. And then, I would say one of the biggest turning points was getting connected to Grant Horvat. Yeah. So, he and it really It was literally just me sending him a DM. And it's funny, Grant, if you're not familiar with YouTube golf, it's just another name. But like, if you are in the that world, he is like the one. the guy. >> Yeah. Like, there's a few that are just like Oh, I'm into YouTube golf. You know how many hours I spend fixing my slice with YouTube golf and watching all the YouTube golf content? >> we're a family of left slicers. Yeah. That's nice. >> [laughter] >> It can look like a draw if you pretend you're righty. Yeah, exactly. But, getting connected with Grant really changed the course of what we were doing. Um you know, it's it's opened doors that couldn't have otherwise been opened. And it's funny, I talk about Grant, like when we first got to know Grant, I equate it to to Bitcoin. It's like It's like buying Bitcoin at like $10,000. >> Yeah. You know, and it's like really gone up. And hopefully just you know, and so Grant is just been like >> It seems to be a trend. You're getting these influencers and people when they're kind of younger >> Yeah, still somewhat established. >> and they have a platform but you've grown with the value of their platform, right? >> Exactly. Smart move. >> Which is huge because I mean he gets so many every single one of his YouTube videos gets over a million views. >> Yeah. You know, and his his discount code alone, you know, generates well over a million dollars a year in revenue. >> And not to mention other like the sponsorship sponsorship of Phil Mickelson happened because of Grant. He connected you to him. Yeah, so him So he started doing these matches against Phil and he came to us and this was right after we brought him on as a part owner. So we gave him we gave him a little bit of equity and um with with this hope and feeling that he'd be able to do things for us that maybe as a normal sponsored athlete wouldn't think to do. And a prime example of that was he came to us and was like, "Hey, I'm going to be playing this match against Phil. I'm going to bet him that if I beat him, he has to wear joggers at the Open Championship." >> Oh, that's cool. And so he ended up he gets five strokes and he beats Phil and it's like the it's like everyone on the video knows exactly what's going on. They're talking about it and Phil's like, "I don't want to wear joggers." He's like Phil had previously tweeted that like joggers, you know, like what do people do? >> it it the traditionalists didn't like it. Like genuinely didn't like it. >> genuinely hated them and they were frowned upon. But now they're very accepted though. >> Yeah. Yes. So So Grant led to getting Phil. So Phil wore the joggers at the Open Championship. We actually flew over to Royal Troon in Scotland and and watched him play. We didn't meet him cuz it was like we didn't have an official partnership at that point. So we didn't want to feel like, "Hey, Phil, like we're the guys that make the joggers." >> sponsorships at the time that he was going against wearing those joggers? >> think he could wear what he wanted at that point. Um I I think he he was on Liv at that point like golf like that. And that was a little bit more free for him I'm assuming. >> Bottom sweep. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, that was huge for us. Everyone like in our like I can usually judge how big something is by the number of people that text me. >> Yeah. And it was like you know, crazy amount like all my friends were like I can't believe this. I see Phil just posted on Instagram. And so, that ultimately led to us sponsoring Phil. And so, it's it's been great to have, you know, Grant on the YouTube side, Phil on the professional golf side, and we recently added Siwoo Kim on the PGA tour. And so, it's it's been important for us to like I mean, to talk a little bit about like some things now like we're so excited about our growth, but now we're in the mode of like how do we how do we make sure that we can get to here from where we are >> Another level up. Yes. And there's so many factors that go into it, you know, but but making sure that we're we're not just a one-dimensional YouTube golf Instagram brand. Yeah. I I think you've surpassed that already. I think so, too. Yeah. >> I think the reality You're not the one-trick pony YouTube brand. Well, and I I think the reality, at least in my opinion, is that a lot of people share that, but I think that there's still too many people >> that think that it's like oh, you might like if you see someone wearing Primo, they might be like oh, you must watch Grant Horvat, which isn't a bad thing, but like it's not that's not the only thing we are. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we want to continue to like like this piece that I'm wearing. It's like we're trying to elevate materials that we use cuz that's something that's really kind of trendy right now. Yeah. Is is to have nicer fabrics and better fabrics for your skin and all those different types of things. So, that's like where we are right now. It's like how do we continue to take this momentum that we've had for the last few years, continue to bring on hopefully more PGA Tour athletes and and then grow our product line in a way that um feels true to the brand that we've created, but also is still elevating. Um You you mentioned it like the stuff is primo. Like we we we actually just kind of uh redid our mission statement and part of it um is the last part of it is designing primo apparel for the golf first lifestyle. Yeah. So that's like our new focus. So we we really want to get in touch with like what really matters to people that are golfers. People I mean you guys know this being golfers like you know who other golfers are in your life and you see them wearing certain brands and that certain those brands often say something about who they are. >> Mhm. You know? And people want to represent certain brands. Yeah. And so we're like hyper aware of that. And we need we we feel this almost responsibility to make sure that we're true to our customers and true to the brand that we've built and that we don't do things just to be trendy or just to be cool, but like that it comes from a genuine place, which is a hard thing to do. It's much easier said than done. Yeah. But that's kind of a big part of where we're at right now. Okay. Should we >> Yeah. I I I'm going to close not just with one question. I'm going to close with three questions. >> Okay. When you do that, I want to thank him then so we have time to do that cuz I want to thank him for something. So and more to note cuz in getting to know you just here on this podcast too, this you've had tremendous incredible success. I mean every young entrepreneur in Utah would love to have had the success you've had in the path you've gone, but you've also come across as having maintained just a you're just a nice guy. I don't know how else to say it. Like you just are a nice humble guy and uh like one time you came to my house in the backyard pool. I don't know if it was you, but one of your cousins or something and you did a Yeah, that was Jason for sure. I don't think even my son was a model or something for you one time. And you've just come from those roots and then you you know, local people going to people's local pool doing advertisement shoots and all this. But then you also have hit the big time and you're still the same nice guy. And that's you know what I'm saying? That that's not No, I really appreciate that. >> always happen that way. >> Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. That was awesome, man. So I've been to the Masters twice. Guess 2001 and but guess how lucky I got three friends and I we said let's go to Masters this year went on Friday and Sunday 2019. Are you serious? >> on the 18th hole 12th row while he came up the back nine and won that thing. >> Where where like on the whole were you? Like up by the green? >> So so here say the big board where he reads here and it's coming up the hill on the 18th. Here's the green. I was right about here 12th row. It was and I got to see when he hugged his kids and mother. I mean I was pretty close. And it was magical. I mean I went to the Super Bowl this year cuz a huge Seahawks fan too. So those are the two biggest sports things I've done is 2019 seeing Tiger win that and then the Seahawks. Yeah. Man. Yeah. But yeah, but the Master like it's got to The Masters is just magical. I know. Was it Was it surreal? No, I've never been. It was. I mean I've actually heard they've hired people from Disney. No, it it's better than run than Disney. Yes. It's Did you go on the rides than Disney? Oh my gosh. Their entrance is so everything's immaculate even more than Disney. The the white paint is always fresh and clear. There's no dirtiness. And then they're super strict on the phones. You felt that. Did you hear that a pro got caught with one this year? And he got suspended. It's usually a lifetime ban, but they're saying he might only be suspended for one year. We'll see. But how about their merchandise sales afterwards? And that huge How well-run is that? This store is gargantuan, size of a football field, and they have lanes come out, but it's it's literally better run than Disney. Yeah. It's crazy. >> What was your What did you go down there for? So, we got tickets through Phil. We put it in our contract with Phil. You put it in the contract? Really? And they were pushing back, and we're like, "No. Like, if you're going to do this, you have to give us Master tickets." Really? Oh my gosh. That's what day? Um so, we went Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. So, you got a practice round, and then the first two rounds. Exactly. >> Yeah. I I I got it I'm just saying the Sunday is um amazing feeling. >> so awesome. So, that's why both times I went I chose Friday cuz I could only afford or get a two days. I got those two days. >> So, you just went down as a fan to go to the Masters. >> Yeah, well, cuz Phil wasn't playing. Phil was supposed to play. I don't know if you heard, but he's like not playing right now. It's a whole I know, that's what's funny. He I just cuz there's a lot of controversy right now over him. Somebody said he'll never be let back in the PGA. Is that true? I I don't know. What are they going to do with that? Isn't LIV crumbling? Isn't LIV like crumbling? Yeah, I hope. So, we're still sponsoring a team, and I hope that tomorrow they announce that the the league is over. Yeah, because they lost their funding, right? >> So, guess what? So, um they several of the LIV guys that took the big money went over did not renew. This is last time they had to renew. They said, "No." Yeah, they're I mean, Is is the PGA going to let them back? Yeah, so they've started like letting >> they're saying they won't let back is Phil. Really? Potentially. No, they What about Bryson? They'll let him back. Yeah, Bryson DeChambeau, they're going to let back, they said. That was their but Phil It's cuz of stuff Phil said, I think, about it. He burned a lot of bridges. >> Yeah. But did they get paid or did they not get paid? >> Did they miss out a lot of money? >> They got all their money up front. >> Saudi The Saudi But they You see they're dropping their funding? Yeah, I know, but that's what I'm saying. >> did, but they still >> next season. I mean, they're they remember they got a signing bonus, right? When they all went over? Huge signing bonuses. The Saudi princes all paid for it. But that I know that that's what I'm saying, they're not going to fulfill their >> Their annual Well, no, if they didn't renew, I I'm sure that they're But the Saudi princes are saying they're out now. >> Yeah, because I just don't think it's taking off like they thought that it would. >> Well, they're just not making the money. Like it's not even close to a profitable endeavor. >> Yeah. It's it's kind of a mess for us because of this contract with Phil. Yeah. And but his notoriety or infamy from this, I think also like you you took communications and advertising. It's when they're not talking about you that you worry. Yeah. Phil's going to get a lot of attention. Yeah. And still people from the old days love him. Totally. >> And they'll wear his clothes, he says, right? I mean, I I think it's good actually in the long run. >> is good publicity, right? >> Yeah, the only bummer is that he didn't play in the Masters. He's probably like he might have >> If he would have played the Masters, cuz even it the PGA said they're not going to let him in, he still gets to play the Masters. >> Why why didn't he play the Masters? Was he hurt? >> There's some sort of family issue going on. >> Yeah. It's I think it's a health issue in the family, I thought. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, well, from what we're hearing, it's one of the children. >> For some reason, I just read that article and I'm not up to speed on it. Really? >> Yeah, but they've been really hush-hush about it. >> Yeah, okay. So, I don't know all the details, but >> Thank you for your time today, and before we wrap up, I do have these three questions. One, give all of our viewers and listeners the size of Primo now. How many employees? Don't tell us revenues, but like where are you at? Give us a good snapshot of like Yeah. from 2020 >> Yeah, the scope from the first run of 100 or no, 250 pounds >> part-time Yeah. Where are you at? >> So, when we started, yeah, four of us in a basement. And then we got a 1,500 square foot unit in Orem. Um probably about a year after we started, and And within like two months of that, we had to get another unit right next to it, uh 1,500 sq ft more. >> are headquarters, by the way, for you guys? >> That was in Orem, but we're now in Lehi. >> Lehi, okay. >> So, after being there for about a year, we got 10,000 sq ft in Lehi. We're there for about 2 years, and then we just moved into a 30,000 sq ft. >> 30,000 sq ft. >> And we've got um it's about 20 employees. Um I didn't have full contractors for different things that we do, so just over 20. Yeah. Which, you know, on one hand feels huge, and I think on another hand, sometimes people are surprised that we don't have more employees. Hey, you guys are just uh efficient. >> That's business today. Businesses are more efficient now. Yeah. For sure. And one thing that's been huge for us throughout Primo, and I'm sure you guys have seen this with other business that you talk to, but there's this element of real success, which is good sales, happy customers, great products, and then this element of perceived success, which is like social media, you're in these big retailers. Like, the things that people see. Yeah. Signing Phil Mickelson. People hear about those things, and they their mind goes, "Wow, they must be killing it." >> Yeah, yeah. And so, we've always tried to maintain a balance of those things. Like, we don't want to like make it seem like we're this crazy cool business if we didn't have the sales. >> stay relatable. >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What are your other questions? >> Well, my other question now is, now given us that size and, you know, the scale of what Primo is, what's the coolest thing that's happened along the whole journey where you were just like, "I cannot believe this is my life." It It has to be meeting Phil Mickelson. >> Yeah, 1,000%. >> So, that whole process was just so surreal. You know? Um we we flew down to San Diego, and we had prepared for this meeting. We knew we were going to meet him. At that point, the deal was basically done, but we wanted to meet him in person. And And so, we go to this really fancy hotel in in San Diego, and meet with Phil. and the whole So he sponsored or he has the High Flyers team on the LIV Golf League. So we met like with their whole staff. And then it was Phil and Amy who's from Utah. His wife. Um And so it was it was so nerve-wracking cuz he's this I mean he's one of the top 10 golfers of all time. >> yeah. And so many people's favorite golfer of all time. You know, him and Tiger obviously were like in their heyday together. So we get there and we got there a little bit early. The rest of the High Flyers staff was there early. They're like, "Oh, Phil's going to be a little bit late." So we're like, "All right." And then finally he walks in. So you were just floored and shocked and just like this is so cool. >> down and proceeds to tell us 10 things he loves about Primo. And so it was just like, "Man, this is like when we started this company with these joggers, I never thought that I'd be sitting across the table from Phil and then go to lunch with him and then like hang out with him." >> isn't that just encapsulate entrepreneurship and startups and like the journey of business is so crazy. 100%. >> with whoever you guys are listening to this all the time, they think, "Oh, overnight success. This just happened." No. This was years of toil. >> Yeah. >> [snorts] >> It's a zigzaggy. It's not a straight easy run, right? And it could have blown up at any time in a bad way, right? You know, disintegrated if you didn't make the right decisions, do the right things. I mean, that's it. Entrepreneurship's hard. >> Yeah. >> You can't say it's easy. >> And but at the same time, if you're honest, if you're good to people, if you put out great products and you are trying to change the world with great products and just stick to your guns, good things will happen. But you know, if you're in it for a flash in the pan, quick get rich quick, doesn't happen, does it? >> Right. >> So what a perfect transition to my last and final question out of the three. We ask every single guest this, Matty, and we always wrap up with this. What is your number one piece of advice to the new budding entrepreneur, the new person that's wanting to start a Primo, that's wanting to start a software company, that's wanting to get into business and be an entrepreneur, what do you telling them? What's the one thing that comes to mind? Um get people paying you as soon as possible. >> Revenue. Get people paying and validating through dollars. >> someone has to pull out their credit card and actually spend their own money, like that is the proof that you've got something. >> Yeah. With the startup that I talked about Flip during my BYU days that didn't end up making it anywhere, we had no we didn't have a great path to revenue. So, it was a cool idea, but it was going to require all these users and it was just this impossible task. Maybe with a bunch of money we could have figured it out. But from day one we were starting to bring in revenue. So, my my advice would be get to that point where someone has to actually put money towards your idea because everyone will tell you that your idea is good. Yeah. But until they have to spend their own money, that's when you know. Yeah. I love that advice. >> Good advice. Thank you. Well, Matty, thank you so much for coming on. This has been an amazing episode. No, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. We're going to wrap up the episode. Episode 50. 50. We've hit 50, which is very cool. And we have a great guest for it. So, thank you for coming, Matty. Good luck with everything. We didn't get to talk about the masters. I wanted to hear it, but >> That's okay. We'll chat. >> We'll chat after podcast. Maybe we won't film it. We won't include it in the episode. But thank you for watching. This has been episode 50. Like, subscribe, follow Primo, follow Grant, follow Matty, follow him on LinkedIn, follow their brand on Instagram. They can put out amazing things. >> products. They're great. Buy some products, you know, and um support Matty and what he's been able to build here even though he doesn't need it. He's in millions of revenues, but thank you for watching the Startup Ignition Podcast. We are out. Yeah, cool man.