Jeff Burningham

And as our machines become more intelligent, we as humans must become more wise or else >> if not and we let it just happen to us, humans lesser side will come out. >> Human nature and greed and all that could play a bad role. >> And I think that AI is going to be a crucible for humanity. That that movement will be focused on human flourishing. And let me just say based on my experience in politics, that is not actually what happens right now. It rock it back next to it. Next to rock it next. >> Welcome back to the Startup Ignition podcast. I'm Tyler Richards. This is John Richards. We're the guys giving you everything to start, grow, and scale your startup. We're trying to be informative. We're trying to bring you awesome content from innovators, entrepreneurs, founders with their real life stories with their in the trenches stories. And today, I'm so excited about our guest because we have Jeff Burningham in the building people. So, thank you Jeff for coming. I actually >> a legend in the house. >> A legend in the house with two legends themselves. A father son duo. >> We actually dynamic duo. That is the only unique factor that we have. I will claim that one. We're a father and son duo investing and helping startup founders. But >> yeah, I'm going to flip it on you guys. How is it working father son? See now now >> we still talk to each other. >> That's good. That's good. >> No, it's actually pretty good. I mean, you know, family business is high trust. It's the good. It's the best of the best and the worst of the worst sometimes, right? >> Cuz what like I don't question anything he's doing, but at the same time, I'm so nitpicky about things he's doing, right? It's like, "Dad, are you serious?" Right? It's like, but it's good. I think we figured out how to work with each other like 20 honestly 20 years ago. Like >> and and part of this too, Tyler's picked up a lot of knowledge along the way. It's been it's fun to see. I mean, you know, I've spent decades getting the knowledge I have and Tyler is getting like an exciting >> Hey, my claim to fame now is actually this Thursday is my very first BYU class that I'm teaching. >> He's literally going to h half of a whole class. >> Oh, wow. Who are you teaching with? uh with Craig in the in the CS department. >> He has a creating new ventures class um in the CS department. >> It's kind of fun, John, to like pass down here now. He's wanted to do it at at uh and what's interesting is this class, I'm told by Craig Ernshaw, he just loves Tyler and says Tyler just kills it when he goes in the class. He's had him guest lecture and because Tyler is the founder of Dev Mountain, the CS guys really like it. >> I think they just appreciate the background. But I have a bio for you. So, before we get into everything, >> oh jeez, make it short. >> Okay, here we go. I don't know how I don't know how short I can make this with Jeff's background, but okay. Today, we're excited to welcome Jeff. Jeff is a seasoned entrepreneur, angel investor, seed investor, VC investor, now author. That's the big news. But Jeff, you began your entrepreneur journey way back before Peak Capital when I knew you, when I first met you. So, you were a tech entrepreneur back in the day, prior to your real estate uh tycooness, right? You forgot failed governor running. >> Well, that's later. That's later. That's later. But you were also named entrepreneur of the year in 2014. I didn't know that, by the way. So, congrats on that. Um, so you co-founded Keep Peak Capital Partners. Then you co-founded Peak Ventures, which is now Element Ventures. And I love the re rebrand, by the way. Thanks. >> Um, where you invested in ton of Utah's ecosystem and the players we all the billboards we see up and down I-15. We can claim some of those. You can claim a lot of those too, right? >> As far as PCNC, I don't think anybody Jeff and his partners have been more prolific angel and seed investors in the Utah ecosystem going back if you look at the numbers, I mean just it's a staggering amount. >> Yeah. Yeah. And thanks John. And from coming from you that's saying a lot because prolific in that way >> prolific but you three you and your partners have been extremely >> well I also remember you being a very big supporter of boon startup when that was going on and which probably bled into your peak ventures like whole debut and everything right >> yeah we were an investor in Dev Mountain now I remember if you remember that Tyler I mean >> and and on top of that we've seen uh you teach at BYU you're an entrepreneurial professor um your network is immense and on top of that you are now you ran for governor. We can't glaze over that. You ran for governor too but also now author. So >> Jeff has done the whole spectrum of probably what you could do in an entrepreneurial career. So congrats Jeff. >> Thanks. And I'm only 48 years old. I just started. I'm only I'm only halfway there or halfway done. Yeah. >> Okay. Jeeoff I have to ask you this. Yeah. >> When did you make your first million dollars? >> Oh. >> What year was it? How old were you? Okay, Tyler. Geez, you're getting >> when you first became like a millionaire network. >> Yeah. When did you see a million millionaire net worth or like >> maybe maybe when was the first time you saw a million dollars in a bank account? >> I'm not exactly sure, but I'm going to guess about 2005. So, I would have been about 28 years old. So, about >> exact same as Tyler. >> That's my exact about >> He likes to hold that over me cuz I was later. >> About 20 years. Yeah. Well, and no one's ever asked me that. You guys are going to get personal here. >> No, no, no. And by the way, I don't know if that's that's close. That's somewhere close within a couple years, give or take. >> I remember the exact second, but hey, that's that's just me. >> That's because you're young, man. >> So, anyways, welcome, Jeff. We're excited to have you on the podcast and and I'm very excited to actually dive into probably what the topic of the podcast will turn into, which is like, you know, just purpose- driven entrepreneurship, especially in today's era, right? And I'm we feel passionate about that. So, thank you. But before we even get into that, I don't know if you've watched any of our episodes, we like to do an icebreaker. We like to do take a really relaxed, very, very um um cool and easy way to get into the podcast by doing an icebreer. And I'm going to spring something on you, okay? And you can participate, too. Okay. Okay. So, real quick, we're going to do a this or that game, and I want you to tell me what you would prefer in a this or that scenario. And it's going to be humans versus tech or machines. Okay. Okay. to kind of go along with >> 2025 right now. >> By the way, we haven't even dropped the title of your book, which is the last book written by a human. Right. >> Huge deal. It's becoming a bestseller. Wow. >> Yeah. And I've sold it launched two weeks ago today and I have sold the seventh most books in the world the last two weeks. Number seven on the national >> I thought I saw like on some bestseller list you were like out of a top 30 or something. You were number five or something. Something like that. >> Yeah. I've been like three, five, seven. Fluates in all different >> Well, you got two owners right here. So there you go. Thanks. >> Um, so yeah, that's why I'm going along I had to drop the title of the book because that's what we're going along with with this icebreaker, which is a human verse machine this or that. Okay, you ready? >> Like right now in 2025. >> Yeah. Yeah. Here we go. Well, well, and kind of like what if scenarios, but here we go. I had to get a little bit of creative, a little creative. Okay. Okay. If you wanted to ideulate, okay, as an entrepreneur, are you brainstorming with the buddies around a whiteboard or are you using chat GBT and generating like a hundred ideas in like 10 seconds? >> I may be old school, but I'm doing it with buddies around a whiteboard. I just I still think there's something about human. Again, the tagline of my book is becoming wise in the age of AI. So I think there's something both um connecting in those jam sessions and then in those brainstorms and also there's just something about human wisdom that I still think >> AI may get there but it's a little flat and synthetic and so anyways I'd say >> just takes its last word and predicts what it should be the next word. It's not memory and collective wisdom and all creativity. But I will answer. I'm probably half and half. But >> I was going to say I would be surprised if you don't say Chad GPT because >> well here here's what's happened. We've spent the last we've spent the last year and a half building a system trained on my life's work and taking people through the lean startup process in a faster, better, more efficient way. And we've launched that software two months ago and it's really affecting a lot of people to make things go faster. Like truly >> is this a John Richards AI? There's a clone. Yes, it's a it's called Ask John. No joke. And it and a lot of people are starting to use it now, but it's it's helping them >> do startup work faster because there's a lot of drudgery work actually in the beginning of a startup and coming up with the first drafts of things is tough for a lot of people. So, if you can kind of get lifted by a first draft like what I would do is use it to get first drafts or first thoughts and then human wisdom and sage You're 50/50 and you're buddies around a whiteboard. >> Yeah. I mean, but I'm probably 77% that and 23% I like John's idea about having it just surface a bunch of things, but then I feel like it's almost too in our platform that helps a lot of entrepreneurs and to the viewers and listeners, a lot of people are coming on and doing it. And what's interesting is I have to constantly remind people this is so powerful and what you're seeing is great, but you have to finish it. Like when you get a business model draft out of AI, it's super good now the way we've trained it, but it still doesn't mean you don't review it and tweak it and test it and go out and make it your own. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. It's when you put 100% on AI, that's where problems exist. >> I mean, and one of the reasons just Are we spending too long here, Tyler? One of the reasons it's called the last >> one of five scenarios, but yeah, >> the last book written by a human, just real quick, is because I wrote actually every word of this book, except this is a little spoiler, the book's out now, but the forward was written by Chat GPT, but every other word was written by me. I'm not sure how many books are going to be like that in the future. >> I think that's already gone. >> Exactly. Well, that's already gone. This really was the last book. Maybe that's one of the reasons that titles. >> Let's go to the next one. Next one. Here we go. This or that. Ready? Here we go. As a business owner, are you utilizing all these like AI chat bots and roocalls to take care of customer support? Like if you were to have a customer support department or need for a SAS software or product or CPG company and you're getting all these calls and you have to feel them all, are you doing the AI chat bots or are you hiring individuals to still have that kind of human touch and experience around customer support like what are you doing AI or are you hiring out a team? >> I mean these are hard questions. I've never run a business like that with a big customer support group. But um >> let me just say that I think that we need to make sure that AI is focused squarely on human flourishing. So that's the lens that I would look through. In other words, if we could uh benefit the customer and not cut a lot of jobs, I would be tempted to use AI. But if it's just like people are out and this customer service is going to be terrible, I'm not super anxious to move towards that. >> I think that's happening. I know it's happening. I've heard I've heard I heard one call center that was gargantuan, like 4,000 people being completely replaced by AI. That's but I I I would say >> we don't have the same operating experience where people need a lot of customer but you and I have just employed some AI to help with the initial intake on some things because we were getting overwhelmed and if we're if we want to keep our team small and not get overwhelmed AI you know do you go AI do you do a virtual assistant from another nation do you hire a US worker it's compelling economics to use AI for frontline on some things >> I will say VAS are really popular right now. I feel like everybody's utilizing VAS because you're still getting that human interaction experience and the conversations at a cheaper rate. >> Immense economics developing from an offshore AI combined or excuse me, offshore VA combined with an AI. Those two together, it's hard for an American worker to compete with it. >> Yeah, it is. >> Which is scary. >> It is scary. I'm I'm gonna Okay, I have to do this one, but I might cut it after this one cuz we're going so long and I want to get to Jeff's story and Jeff's background and Jeff's everything. >> This is more fun this or that. I like >> Yeah, these what if scenarios. Uh, so this one is an investment. So are you trusting your gut and your experience and your history as an entrepreneur, as a founder, as a businessman or are you going the AI or machine even machine learning route because you know these exist, right? >> This is the easiest question. >> Okay. And and you know those models are crunching numbers and telling you what to invest in. What are you doing? >> I I'm doing I mean as a guy who's owned billions I mean our firm has owned 10 billion dollars of real estate probably over the history of our firm. Yeah. And as a guy who's been an early stage investor, I think in 200 Utah startups now, I'm trusting my gut. It's pattern recognition. It's about the team. Obviously, in real estate, there's so much data. This is why I pivoted to venture. One of the reasons is I love the art actually in the underwriting of early stage venture. And that art's just not there nearly as much in real estate. You can under there's so much data in real estate. There's not that much data as we know in the early stage. So this one actually of the three questions is by far the easiest for me based on my experience. >> Your own judgment, >> my own judgment, my own gut. Would I look at the data from AI? Absolutely. Would it play a part? For sure. It would definitely not make the final decision. >> As far as robo investing, no. Robo investing means I don't do anything. I just do what it says. No way. But as far as the research and analyzing and crunching lots of data and finding, for instance, finding competitors, it's a lot of work to scour everywhere to find competitors. And you can get a lot of help and get a leg up by just having it do the basics. So the basic research and analysis, yes, but decision making, no. >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's kind of crazy. I I so I think the overall theme of this this or that game that we've been playing is like human and experience and our own thoughts supported by AI's analytical thinking and data driven. >> We'll talk more at the end after here I have some questions for Jeff to end today. >> Yeah, let's do it. >> Real quick, I just want to say like you guys know early stage investing is about the team here. Like you're investing in the team. The only thing you know when you get a business model or business plan is you know it's wrong. >> You just don't know how it's wrong. So when you especially in the early stage when you invest early stage you're going on a long journey with this team and these people and so and there's no robot or AI that can say this is a good person or you would like to partner with this person that in my group Utah angels which went on for 15 years we all we actually put some money into some university research to see is there some test you could give a founding team to see if this is going to be but there's no common scenario you don't know how tenacious persevering they'll be. Uh you can't there's you can't >> I agree but what do you think the com what do you think it is John after your decades of investing because I have a I have a thought >> you have a thought yeah so be but tenacity and um >> grit >> and yeah tenacity and staying in the game long enough to have the right business model emerge because like you said absolutely the initial business model and we teach this constantly is not going to be the winning business model it's going to pivot. >> Yeah. >> To the winning business model. And >> is the is the combination of the founders, are they humble enough to be taught by the marketplace and the buffetings they'll receive to improve and get better? >> And are they tenacious enough not to have those buffetings and what'll happen in the marketplace chase them out? Does that make sense? What do you think? >> Well, the one word I would use that I have not heard much, I should write an article on this, >> but this is the word that came to me. several years ago. >> Urgency. I think if there's an urgency about these early founders, the successful ones. >> What do you mean? What do you mean? Like just they they they got to get off their butt and do something. >> Well, just everything is urgent. Everything is urgent. And then the reason that I think that's important, one of the reasons that John just said, it helps you get to the learning quicker. You you don't burn so much cash before you learn. To quote Steve Blank, the father of Lane startup, he says, "Every startup's in a race against time." >> It's literally the whole runway issue. You only have so much resources, so much time before you consume all the resources. And that's your life, your time, your money, your capital, investor capital, all these resources that you gather as an entrepreneur, whatever you have, there's only so much runway. And if your plane doesn't take off, you're dead. >> Exactly. And so I think that urgency is critical. Like that's a common denominator as I look back at these hundreds of startups and see which ones work and don't and you even see later stage a little bit later stage still early CEOs come in when they don't have this sense of urgency things stag. You know why the data shows that like the let's say there's a first time founder and he's successful and then he does a second >> startup. The stats show that that startup is not a good one to invest in because >> if they've got their proceeds from their exit on their first one their urgency is not there. Does that make sense? They go they basically say >> well if this one fails I'm still good. >> Yeah. Well and that that goes into the problem. A lot of founders think that actual money and capital will solve that problem like oh if I just have more money I can go and do X Y and Z. It's not about the money. It is about finding and peeling back the layers and getting to the right business model. >> Yeah. What we find is the constraint of no literal amounts of money >> is how they use their ingenuity to solve problems instead of throwing money out. >> Yeah. Well, creativity loves constraint, right? With with with unlimited constraint like anything is possible. That's kind of goes back to the AI 100 ideas. It's like anything's possible. No, let's like have some constraint here. And I think that let me just say one other thing and this would be very played out in my book and I just want to say it to all the entrepreneurs listening. Although that urgency I think is um a a common trait in startup see I'm not sure that's a great trait for life. Let me just say um like that doesn't serve you forever. In fact, my book is about this. It's about kind of scaling and climbing this mountain of success and going, "Oh, is this it? Not everything's fixed. I don't have all the answers. I don't know everything. I still have ups and downs. I, you know, like um and so anyways, let me I just want to caveat and say that although that can be, I think, helpful in startups, I'm not sure in the long tale of life if that's a great uh >> Yeah. Hopefully, you're not treating your family unit as your startup cuz if you're doing that, you're not sleeping in in your bed with your partner. >> Tyler and I have noticed in you know he he sold Dev Mountain and then started angel investing with me and we had a great runs father son team and then started the fund and all that so call it a decade. Um he's commented much to me a number of times and I've noticed it too just sometimes the most successful ventures we've ever invested in the CEO founder the p the uh yeah the primary founder is a little weird a little quirky >> I'd say crazy >> yeah they're they're literally it would I want to go on a vacation with them I don't think so now I know I don't get invited on any vacations. I'm just kidding. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I don't know how to explain it. It's just like I just don't know because And so like >> it is just a weird thing. They like >> Where are you going with this? >> Yeah. Just that the just looking at what he's talking about like is that a good thing for life? Cuz sometimes the best qualities that make for an entrepreneur founder sometimes are not the best qualities for a more balanced peaceful >> life. They are. And I don't think you know I'm in midlife. I'm 48 years old. John, I don't know how you're feeling, but you know, like I also don't think there's times and seasons for everything. I don't think they serve you well like the the older you get necessarily. >> Steve Gibson taught me something a long time ago. It's really stuck with me and I think this fits. He said, >> "Entreneurship is living a few years of your life like nobody else will. Nobody else will be that devoted to business crazy and be put everything in be a little imbalanced for a few years. >> So you can live the rest of your life like nobody else can because of the benefits of a success entailed venture. So I kind of tell people, yeah, for a few years you're going to be imbalanced. If you're going to be a great startup founder, you can't do everything. You can't do everything in your church. You can't do everything in your charity. You can't be the perfect family man completely like you were out of a picture book, right? because you're going to be in balance for a few years and you've done a fiduciary responsibility to people that gave you money and your co-founders, everybody. But it's not meant to be forever. It's not meant to be a lifetime endeavor. >> It's going to come to an end at some point and you got to leave that behind. That's the tough part. >> It is. Yeah. I mean, well, it's tough when you look for validation outside of yourself. >> Yes. >> We we It's in the air we breathe that we look outside of ourselves for validation. We think that acquiring things outside of ourselves is gonna make us happy. >> Then you realize, oh wait a second, that didn't quite work. What I say in the book, sorry, I've been talking a lot about the book, so I'm going to reference that and it's right down the alley for other people. what we're all and I say this I said you know I've taught thousands of students like you guys have in entrepreneurship at BYU now and as an adjunct and I often say to them the most powerful ideas are often the most simple and therefore the most neglected and this is one of those >> what we're really looking for is inside ourselves what we're all really looking for is actually inside us >> and it's not outside Yes. But but so much of our culture in America, in the western US, in our let's say high demand religion, religious background, I mean, there's so many things in the air we breathe that is teaching us that it's out there and outside of us. And let me just say, as a 48-year-old middle-aged guy who's had some success and done a lot of different things, I'm very confident that actually what we're looking for is inside of us. So my my encouragement in the book is actually to use AI as a cosmic mirror for humanity to go inside itself because that's where we're that's what we're really looking for. That's the answer. >> And that'll help a lot of entrepreneurs because to our viewers and listeners, we've said it many times before and I think you'll agree with this. I constantly preach to all these young entrepreneurs that when they're in some of the tough times when it's really tough in this steep hill like this, I say, I'm going to tell you something. When you get to the summit, if you're able to get the summit, let's call that an exit where you become wealthy and you've changed the world with a great product and you've gotten a nice bank account >> and you're at that summit, you then start going, "Is this it? >> I had more fun climbing the steep parts of where I didn't know if I was going to make it or not." >> I can't tell you how many times I just reminisce with my ex- business partners like, "Oh, remember that time when we were struggling and doing this and it's like that was more fun than like right now." >> Yeah. That that teaches you a lot about um humans. like we're meant to do hard things and I think that AI is going to be a crucible for humanity. That's what I call it in the book like a a challenge for us to go through together. I hope not divided because it can easily divide us. We've seen that with social media etc. But it's a crucible that I actually think can bring us back to ourselves and help us the the second two sections in the book are transformation and evolution. can help us transform and evolve >> humans into doing the right reaction and be proactive in the right reaction to AI because if we let it happen to us instead of we guide it that's what you're saying that's what I get out of your you know I haven't read and finished the whole book okay but I'm digging into it and and knowing where you're going with this and I've heard you speak recently too at other events and I think that's what you're trying to say is that when you say it's a crucible it's a fork in the road we have a choice and we humans could choose wisely here or if we let happened to us then it might not go well. >> Absolutely. I mean the thesis of the book in one sentence is that as our machines become more and more intelligent which is the fact of life in >> September 2025. >> Yeah. We've seen it in Terminator and Matrix. >> Yeah. But as our machines become more intelligent, we as humans must become more wise or else. And I'm not trying to be too doomsday like but like or else this is going to be ugly, you know? Like I worry about our children and I'm a grandpa now. >> Would every single AI leader agree with that statement though? I think so. I I seriously think every single inventor or person or innovator around AI in the last decade 20 years have said they came out saying that exact same thing. And right now it's really split though on we there's a lot of warnings coming out right now with concept of super intelligent AGI and all that that we could have a dystopian future but if we play it right we could have a utopian future and that's I think what your book's bringing out we >> but it's a we have to make a proactive choice to make it happen if not and we let it just happen to us >> hum human humans lesser side will come out >> human nature and greed and all that could play a bad role. >> Absolutely. And I think that this book, I mean, it's been like since I lost in the governor's race in 2020, it's basically been 5 years in the making. We don't have to go into that, although it was quite a process to write this book for me. It's very vulnerable, very personal, um, very transformative for me. And of course it's coming on the scene I think right at the perfect time which is I think >> some serendipity there and some but um it's critical that we have this conversation now because if we just let like you said John AI quote unquote happen to us I mean we already have an experiment a general use technology kind of a baby AI baby algorithm in social media and we see what that has done just just take politics I mean I ran for governor I saw what it did in real life in town halls with politics and then of course polarization and division. We forget that we always have more. Anytime that we sit next to another human, we have more in common than we have different. It doesn't matter if you know we're rich, poor, white, black, conservative, liberal. There's always more that we have in common. And it's very easy for the algorithm to skew that and to think everyone's different, everyone's an enemy >> because the purveyors make more money. >> They do. We have to understand that there are vested interest, huge vested interests in division. And I just don't think that's the fundamental root of reality. I think a a divine unity is more at the root of our literal life experience, our reality on earth. And so I'm trying to remind people that I'm trying to spark a conversation about this because I don't hear enough people I talk about I hear a lot of people talking about how to make more money with AI, how to be more efficient, all those things. That's that's fine and but what about the existential implications for humanity? What about what does this really mean for us? Anyway, so that's that's what the book's about. It's like about all the big question. >> You and I have had so many great conversations over the year and gotten into some really deep subjects going back. I remember se several of them with you. So, let's do this. Let's go over entrepreneurship and then I want to go politics and end on AI. Can we do that? >> Yeah. But I wanted to go back to your because I don't know about your past history in like cuz you started a company in college, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, I did. >> And I I don't even know anything about that. Can you take us way back? >> Yeah. I I can probably give you my uh background in like two minutes. Do it. Go for it. Because there's kind of been five things. number one uh was a tech entrepreneur, a founder, won all the BYU business plan competition >> right before I got there as a professor, I think. Correct. >> What what what was it? >> It was called Mindwire. It was a web and brand integrator for business. It was in 2001, I think. No, no, no. I just lied. It was in 99 or 2000 that we won um the the competitions >> during the do era before the do >> before the do crash. Yeah. Although we sur so it would have been sorry I just want to get this it was in 2000. >> Yeah. So the do crash happened early first quarter it started going down but really got bad in 2001. >> Yeah. So tech founder sold that company kind of serendipitously kind of um >> uh out of my partner and I weren't getting along. He was a great guy but he we had about 20 developers just creating um custom software for companies. And I wanted to productize the business. But I understood that like we can only really scale this if we productize it. So I kept bringing him ideas. >> Again, a great guy, but I kept bringing him ideas for like a year until finally I realized, oh, we're never going to productize this business. Let's sell it. >> The services work. You were just >> Yeah, it was just fun. We were mid20s making pretty good money. We had a he had a team of 20 developers, you know, they were there till late playing Halo and who knows what else is in 2000. So anyways, um, so that so sold that company to NASDAQ listed firm, had an earnout, went into real estate before the the great recession. I did that as a strict six were great real estate years. >> Yeah. And they were and I I knew there was going to be a pullback. I had no idea how bad it was going to be. Big Capital never even almost made it because it was so long and prolonged. But I knew there was going to be a pullback. And I >> That's something that you shared recently in talk. heard. So, you know, it was 0506 you were starting in real estate. Things were going great. Then you decided to do Peak Capital Partners. What year did that actually start? >> Yeah, that was in We our LLC started in December of 2006. >> Okay. Wow. >> Right. In a good time and then a year later >> and then Yeah. Well, a year later it hit, but again, we formed Peak Capital knowing or feeling there was going to be a pullback. >> Yeah. I actually remember the first time you pitched that to me. You actually had the idea in the middle. You said, "Hey, >> there's going to be a lot of portfolios of real estate available at good prices." Yeah. >> And that was part of your first pitch. You saw some good things. But then I didn't know till recently that cuz I've kind of actually in the real estate game thought you and your partners at Peak Capital just had a perfect path and you never had an obstacle. But even though you saw the pullback coming and we're going to take advantage of it cuz that's what I remember your first pitch being >> but it was so deep and so long that it actually threatened you too. >> Absolutely. Yeah. And and we were so young, John. I mean, we didn't have a track record of investing in real estate. We were living our >> How did you make that transition? You're like, I'm going to go buy some real estate. >> I don't know. You know, you just figure it out. You make it happen. I think >> I think people believed in me and I'm really grateful for that. I want to say thank you. raised funds for that endeavor. Like you didn't you didn't take >> but the you guys remember John you remember the real estate was so stuck like for two years nothing happened. So that's why we almost didn't make it is because we had two years of doing nothing. Now >> some of the some of some of the entrepreneurs listening to this don't know how deep and profound that was. It was like four years total. >> Yeah >> from 08 to 12. >> The first two years 08 and 09 were absolutely abysmal. Yeah. >> Right. I mean >> there was nothing even happening. It was just like everything >> gummed up. So had you was the threat to you because of debt? >> Yeah. Well, the threat was just because we were um >> real estate always debt. >> Maybe my two partners are Ivy League NBA. Great guys. You guys know Jeff and Jeff Danley and Jamie Dunn. Jamie and I ran the management consulting club together at BYU. I stayed with my startup. He went to Bane and then Wharton. Jeff went to Dartmouth. That's where he and Jamie met. And um it was just because it was two years and there was no cash flow and no transactions. And we didn't know when it would break through, but when we broke through eventually, we broke down. >> It's kind of the same right now, is it not? Isn't the real estate market very just >> No. No. Not like this. >> Not like this. This was very recessionary, like very scary. >> Tyler, there were people that in ' 06 I know in real estate said, "I'm set for life. I never have to worry." And two years later, suicidal. >> Yeah. Had nothing. Yeah. Everything. We we I know people here in Utah that lost 80 to 95% of their net worth like in a few months. >> Wow. Yeah. Okay. Not like today. >> Yeah. Today's just like stagnant mainly interest rate based but anyways we don't need >> but then what I remember you just from the outside because of your tremendous success I remember like starting 2010 2011 2012 2013 you guys are killing it. >> Oh we crushed it. Yeah. I mean I'm saying for our investors like our investors did really well. We did well. >> What do you contribute that to? >> Oh it was just the market was turning. We we were buying at rock bottom prices. Like I in hindsight, if we knew how cheap real estate was in 080, we would have all Yeah. We would have all >> done as much as we could. And to be honest, and to be fair, we did as much as we could. We were young operators. We raised, you know, I can't tens of millions of dollars, but not, you know, we've raised billions now, but we we deployed as much as we possibly could in those years. And they did >> all realms of real estate. what Tyler like it's you know it literally was single family multif family commercial you don't name the real estate and you could buy real estate for less than the replacement cost so the land was free and a discount on the replacement cost that's what you could buy stuff for I mean I remember homes that were $500,000 that you could buy for $100,000 when the land was worth the 150 and the home was 350 to build and you're buying homes for a hundred down in Arizona insane. >> Yeah, it was. >> Yeah. Anyways, it was a crazy time. >> Still timing market and the knowledge and understanding and understanding where you're at and what you should be. >> So, he used the word tycoon for you. So, we'll just use that. You you and your partners, Peak Capital Partners, became a powerhouse. It was incredible, very successful and over the from 2010 to 2020, incredible boom time. But you also have your heart in tech entrepreneurship. And so tell me how you made the decision to start Peak Ventures, which by the way I so was really happy because at the time we had one seed fund in Utah and I was so happy when you started that and you became super prolific. You did like first year 25 to 35 investments or something. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I I still remember Yeah. Um >> for the first time we had a little bit of money, Jeff, Jamie and I like we survived. We made it. We probably had about 500 million in assets on the real estate side. And I remember sitting around our little conference table in Provo and saying, "What should we do with this money?" And I said, "I know exactly what we should do." And it's because I was friends with Garrett G and Kirk Weim at Scan. I was friends with Kurt Workman at Owlet. You know, all these up Ryan Caldwell at MX. These are all early investments we made. >> Like, we should take a chance on these guys. >> Well, I said there's an under, this is exactly what I said, and I've said this probably a hundred times. there was an underupp of good capital and an overupp of good entrepreneurs. This is 15 years ago, you know, it's and and so I said, let's start investing in startups. So, we started making angel investments and then pretty soon thereafter, because we had made some good ones, our LPs in the real estate had heard, oh, are you guys doing venture investing? And they said, yeah, you know, that's Jeff Burningham's background. We've been making some investments. They're like, well, can we invest with you? Let's And so for the first time, I honestly did not think I'd set out to raise a fund. >> Your own angel group. >> Yeah, we were going to be our own high net worth kind of like what we are now except with a lot more money investing just our own money. Um but there was a lot of appetite so we raised a fund quickly and yeah, Peak Ventures one and two I I think I I'll say that I think those will be the best performing funds in the history of the state of Utah to date. I I mean there might be I mean they'll be phenomenal. We were the first investor in most of the companies along I-15. Um, but then I lost my mind. Ran for governor. By the way, Peak Peak Ventures is album. I mean, it became album. It rebranded his album. And um, >> it turns out if you invest in a trough and ride the ride up to the peak. You do really well. I like your name, Peak. >> Well, I and I kind of >> I know that's for the mountains probably, but >> I did that in real estate. I did that in technology. >> Yeah. And then I got slapped running for governor because of co >> to end this I just peak ventures though really um expanded and here to this is I love these history lessons just for our viewers and listeners the great recession from 28 to 2008 to 2012 also changed venture. What happened before that? Angel investors were really important in an ecosystem and then there were series A big funds. I mean, and the funds were huge. They had to have a lot of money cuz a company would need a lot of money. >> There was nothing in the middle. >> Finally, Utah got its first Kickstart seed fund. >> Yep. >> And then it cherrypicked all the good deals for a long time. >> Yeah. >> And what was funny, we needed more seed funds and then you started the second one. >> Yeah. And you also had a heyday you because you came in with the capital and what happened was for those just one of the history lessons is that angel investors actually became less important and what became important was the seed funds in our ecosystem in Utah which is the number one or number two over the last 15 years in the country. the seed funds carved the way for the success of what happened in Utah and you were right there as one of the great leaders bringing more seed capital to a hungry >> you know there's more startups per capita in Utah county than anywhere else and it needed the capital and you did that >> those are special years I was just on with Clint Betts a couple weeks ago on the Silk and Slows podcast I've been on like 10 times over the years but um >> we were talking about the book but um those are you remember John and you remember 2014, 15, 16, those were special years in Utah and that's where we were investing and so you know we were the first investors or very early investors and you know podium weave >> 2012 was the time when okay the recession's over. I told all four of my kids you better get a house now cuz it's going straight up. They all bought a house in 2012 next seven years tripled tripled. I mean, those were literally the the the peak of my short career thus far. Like, those years were just straight up. >> 2012 to 2016. >> Literally, I don't remember hard times ever. >> Until 2022, >> all of Tyler's age and younger, we're going, "What's going on here?" >> You mean market cycle? Like, is that really what happens? >> I know. I thought it was a straight ride for the rest of your life. Um, but yeah, so anyway, >> well, I appreciate that, John. Yeah, it was really fun. Let me just say it was really fun and it now it's just whatever. Now there's a lot of funs. Um but it was somewhat big news 15 years ago because it was really just kickstart. They needed some competition and I love Gavin and but they need some competition. They didn't have it and peak ventures >> doesn't matter at the time there was so much entrepreneurship. You got to understand lean startup hit and then we threw out all the curriculum at BYU in 2010 and then companies got even better coming out of Utah and so they needed capital and not a lot of people from outside were coming to Utah yet. They started coming later and you it was just really important and and uh you know people got to understand you viewers and listeners Jeff you this whole track record is pockmarked with risk-taking. Jeff took risks, did big things, and like Tyler's going, "How did you in your 20s do a you know, something that came to a multi-billion dollar real estate fund is cuz you took risk." >> Yeah, it's true. >> And you also, >> and I'm a contrarian a little bit. I I very hard times, you know, and exactly what contrarian is often the smartest thing to do, right? So, I just tip my hat to you on that. >> Thanks, John. I appreciate it. >> But tell us now about this. Okay. So, super successful real estate guy, super successful venture guy, and then you decide to run for governor. What's that about? I don't know if you haven't seen our most recent podcast, one of our recent ones with Case Lawrence. He ran too. I think we're going to hear a lot of same things. He got a little in interesting after running. His comments were interesting. What did you discover about politics and >> why did you do it and all that? What do you tell us? >> Well, do do you want me to tell you how I got in or what? >> Yeah. How you got in and what I learned? Yeah. And after it was all over, what was your opinions of it? >> It's interesting. I start the book on the Ganges River in Varinasi, India. Varonasi, India is the holiest city for Hindus. >> I've been there. >> And have you been there? >> Yes. And they throw the bodies on the Ganges River. >> Oh my gosh, John. This is where it my book starts. You got to read it. The point is that I go there in 2017 and I felt myself, my my soul, my subconscious being lured into like deeper waters. So Sally and I started talking about what are we going to do after all this work and and do we want to how long do I want to keep working this hard because >> I had built several companies at this point and it was a lot. It was a little overwhelming and one of the things that we discussed doing was running for governor and so things just kind of we came back I got busy running Peak Ventures and Peak Capital again but things just started falling a line in line to run for governor. the chair of the the Republican party was a good friend of mine. He took me to lunch and said, "You should consider running." You know, like just a bunch of things started happening. Most importantly, what matters really was I felt like I was being lured into like deeper waters of service and whatever. And so, um, what I now realize with hindsight, what I realized about a year after I lost was that my subconscious was taking me off the stage. I had built this little stage for Jeff Burningham. I climbed this little mountain of success like we spoke about and it was just obliterating it and kind of starting from scratch. That's very hard. It's kind of like an ego death, but I think it's a it's a process that we all go through personally. By the way, I think it's the process that AI is going to take all of humanity through. But so, yeah, that's how I got into it. I just felt the next mountain you wanted to climb then cuz here I just felt like a successful business and then you said, "Well, what do I do? I've got wealth. I'm gonna serve the community and that was where you chose to serve. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was all about impact for me. I said that as I ran and yeah, it was all about I mean it's funny like I spoke at the Governor Herbert Institute last week at UVU about the book and um you know it's funny Jeff's buying the election. Jeff's making money. I mean what are you you know running for governor? What do you mean? I lost millions of dollars. Like it was all about service is my point. >> Start saying stuff like that. >> Oh absolutely. And especially I I mean I'm I'm just going to say this. Especially like the political class, they don't like to be challenged. No. And so they they'll they'll throw their little arrows about like I don't know about this guy. It's like look I thought that I had look Utah's issue is growth period as a state politically. I thought that I had a very interesting um viewpoint of that since I kind of had was funding the next waves of growth and I wanted to have a proactive smart plan for the growth that's coming to Utah. We've all felt the effects of the rising cost of living and of housing etc. I wanted to be proactive and have a smart plan around that. So that was the pitch um around the governor race. Um I really believed that I was the best candidate. I still believe I would have been the best governor, but >> I'll tell you this, when I kind of considered all the pluses and minuses and there was a lot of considering because if it was just on a whiteboard, I would not have run. Exactly. And that's what everyone that's what my partner's response was. That was what the CEO's like, okay, great. We'll support you, but what are you thinking? And good luck. You know what in the world? And so, um, >> but I did not have a global pandemic, I'll tell you on my score. Like, I did not see that coming. Yeah, >> but most of the campaign were March, April, May, and June of 2020, right after Rudy Gobar shut down the NBA, shut down the United States. I mean, it rippled and those are the most critical months. And I was running against a former governor and presidential candidate, John Hudsman Jr., and the lieutenant governor, who's now the governor, Spencer Cox. And there was no way. You guys have seen this. I've seen this. Whenever there's massive disruption in markets, there's a flight to safety. You see this over and over economically. It happened politically though, too. I remember laying on my couch. This is mid-March 2020 about midnight one night after speaking to the back of my iPhone because we still hadn't figured out Zoom for like a month or two if you guys remember. And I had no idea if I was speaking to five people or 500 people for for like 12 hours. I was doing because I was confined in my home office. And I remember just weeping on my couch because I had put my heart and soul into this. I had raised a million and a half to$2 million dollars from friends. I matched every dollar that was raised. So I had put that money in and and raised that money and I knew because of what I knew about markets like it was over. There were only John. It may have been like this all along but I don't I'm not so sure. But with that kind of disruption, it was only going to be John or Spencer who won. >> And so the the race was over for me. I I fought the good fight, ran it through the end and and lost. But and then I can talk about learnings. >> Let me let me ask you this question about that. So, uh, Case Lawrence came on our episode and he brought he actually talked about this. He says >> around most of the country there's this Republicans versus Democrats is the two big parties, but in Utah, everybody knows Republicans going to win most places. So, that actual >> um, >> it's Republicans versus Republicans. >> It's literally factions inside the Republican party in Utah that have this friction that doesn't exist anywhere else. the Republicans gather around against the Democrats and they gather around. But inside the Republican party in Utah, there's a lot of little factions is what he said. And it's really interesting and a lot of it's super hardwired and hard to break into as great of a business person, manager, and success track record. You've had the political class, which is what you just called it. I've come to see things are so hardwired. I mean it it and how are you going to break through that? And that's what I saw from the outside. Is that accurate? >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, it's it is very accurate. One of my big learnings from running was one of the things you take for granted. We know this now and I've learned it again now writing a book, but these uh markets are niche. Like I knew everyone in business and entrepreneurship in the entire state when I ran. I didn't know the political class like the workers and I had to build up a whole team. I ran a statewide campaign for over a year. I needed a whole team to do that. I've just launched this book now that I've been working on for a couple years. That's a whole new industry. And so, you don't know actually the players and people within the niche industries as well as you could. That's one of the biggest learnings. A second learning, I may get criticized for this, but it's just I had the mistaken belief that politics is usually about leadership and it's not. It it's about like gauging a room, gauging a state, and being on the side of 51% or 55% or whatever. It's not really usually about leadership. Um, and by the way, I don't think it should be like that. And in times, it it isn't like that, but mostly it's about gauging the majority and then saying this is where I I stand with the majority. And so, um, that was pretty disheartening. And I'm not trying to say that with bitter grapes. I'm just saying that I actually realized this like 6 months into it, 8 months into it. Um, oh, this isn't about leadership. Yeah. This is this is about >> So, so you and Case and others I've talked to that are >> good, honest, hardworking business people with successful track record and really taking being through threats of bankruptcy, this and that, and really making it through the gauntlet. And then they go into politics and I see them kind of in disillusioned and and not they don't say well I tried it that's one thing I didn't succeed at but it's a good place to be and we got to keep most of they kind of walk away disillusioned and go this good leadership and good decision making and what's best for all and what's good for society is not really the product coming out it is is that have you concluded that too >> absolutely and this is one of the reasons I wrote the book the the book is broken up. You guys are going to love it. It It kind of mirrors >> both the disruptive process of technology and our own I think spiritual disruption and existential disruption. It follows four sections of the book. The first one is disruption. Change is the only constant. We hate that as humans but that is a fact. Change is the only constant. So disruption >> coming at us more rapidly in today's >> with AI. Absolutely. >> Then there's usually a time for reflection. Now this time for reflection in the age of AI is narrowing which is hard but we get to reflect a little bit like hm what does this mean? What does this say about us? We often refuse let's say the heroic journey call and this reflection moment. I can't do that. I'm not whatever. Then we lean into it and that's when we can transform and then evolve. So transformation evolution are the last two sections. My point is this John in the last section of the book in evolution I talk about all the big things. I talk about reforming religion, conscious capitalism, and a new political movement that I call the human political movement. And the point is that chapter is actually the longest of all the chapters in the book. And um we don't really have a vote for humanity. And we need in the age of AI, in the age of highly intelligent machines, we need a vote for humans. And so this book was written to be a conversation starter that potentially leads or flows into some sort of movement, maybe even a political movement. I don't even honestly know. But the point is that movement will be focused on human flourishing. And let me just say based on my experience in politics, that is not actually what happens right now. >> And so let me ask you two party versus multi-party system because I've thought a lot about this because I've told you my politics. I just say it's such a waste of time. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it because I can do better in society contributing as an entrepreneur or teaching entrepreneurs but two-party multi-party system where have you concluded because I think in today's age of social uh network the social platforms and what the internet's allowed instant connectivity and then this the motive behind social networks to create problems and fighting and division and all that the two-party system makes the polariz like right now you could take an average Democrat from 30 years ago, they'd be a moderate Republican, right? And so it's just really polarizing it. >> And so what is the answer there? What do you see? I mean, how are we going to get out of this? Because there's no way to get out. It's getting worse and worse. >> Yeah. Well, I guess the highlevel answer like how we get there, who knows? That's part of the fun of this experiment that we're running here, this existence that we're living. Um, but um, I guess what I believe because I wrote it in the book. And this book, by the way, was very cosmic. You're going to know me even a lot better after you read this book than you do now. It kind of came through me. This is not what I would have chosen to do. I did not have write a book on my list of things to do in this life. At least I didn't think so. And so, I guess, John, what I believe is I do think we need more political movements. I don't think it can be just one against one because like you said the algorithm highlights and promotes division until the polar until we are so polarized that we break we fracture. >> Maybe it's like a common sense middle. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So again I I kind of argue in this book for a new political movement called the human political movement. I I don't know if that's going to happen. I I don't have here's where we go A, B, C, and D. I'm trying to follow the the flow of the universe. I'm trying to follow my gut, my intuition of what I should do in this life. Um, and so this book is a big step in that direction. But yeah, I think we need more options, I think. And >> you you talked about India being transformative. Is was there anything else that played into that as well? Like within the book and all these thoughts like how did they come to be? Like was it just >> Oh, there's just a Yeah, I mean I talk about everything in the book. I talk about meditation has probably been the biggest mover. I've become a religious meditator. >> Do you? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Really? That's awesome. >> Since the governor's race, you I couldn't sit still before that. And I I want to see John meditate. I want to be John. That's what I'm saying. Meditation guru. Well, but it's really good because that allows you to go inside of yourself. >> Age, age, and wisdom do start coming more. You start thinking I mean like you get passport and so on in life you go well that other asset's not going to make me happier this you know it's the answer's not in assets the assets not in >> grandio vacations you know even though you get to see the world and get exposed to stuff like my trip to India was very interesting I learned a lot okay our listeners and viewers are a lot of entrepreneurs how do you relate that back to business to entrepreneurship like not looking at the assets like what then what's the purpose >> well here's here's one concept that I'll just share as an idea for you guys. Um I know it's something that you struggle with. You guys I struggle with it. So don't and maybe John, you know, like I but it's it's doing versus being. >> Yeah. Like I've heard you talk recently about >> the human we had I had become I talk I'll just talk about myself in the book a human doing. >> I always thought I could if I did more I was more. That is not true. There's always going to be enough doing as long as we're embodied on this earth in this life. There's enough doing, but what we can bring more of is our being to all of our doing. In other words, we are present together just having fun. I feel like we're just at a conversation at lunch. I I don't even know. I don't care about the cameras. Whatever. >> I was going to ask, how do you do that then? Like how do you implement that? Like what are your tips? What what like what's the message right now to everybody listening and watching? Like how are you being not doing? If being is more important to fulfillment and happiness than doing. Okay. So, >> but a lot of human society rewards doers. Yeah. Okay. Entrepreneurs get overrewarded. Successful entrepreneurs get over rewarded in society. And when I say overrewarded, I mean some people become gazillionaires for bringing great products and services to the market and all that, right? Alone. Yep. All those things. And also the accolades. A political leader gets rewarded for being a popular populist, right? And and all that. And so you get really overrewarded for your doing, but being a nice person, being a good father, being a good mother, >> being present for others in your life, that's the being part, right? And and and and so what I think Tyler's asking is, okay, somebody who's really caught up and doing is really important. We got to do stuff to survive. We have to do stuff to get ahead. We have to do stuff to make sure we have our golden years in retirement taken care of. But how do we balance that with being? >> Yeah. Well, I I think it's a great question. I think it's the answer is somewhat unique to every person and not unique. Here's what I mean. Um, you guys are experienced enough to know and this is another one of those the most powerful ideas are the most simple and therefore often the most neglected. >> The joy is in the journey, not the destination. Yeah. >> So in other words, we need to actually detach from outcomes. I I if I'm a CEO of a startup and I do everything I absolutely can to the best of my ability, knowing that I'm going to make mistakes, that is the process I need to be in love with. And actually being in love, married to um whatever with that process is the way to have outsized results. Too often, however, we're focused on an outcome. Whatever that outcome may be, I want to go public. I want to sell a company. I want to have, you know, a nice car. I'm making stuff up. Um, those outcomes aren't necessarily up to us. What is up to us is what we put into the moments of our day >> into our being present in a podcast, being present in a leadership meeting, >> being present in an interview. I I I actually think that uh the present moment is the only thing that exists. >> The past is the past. There's nothing can change. The future actually is a fiction. We don't know what's going to happen when we walk out of this room. We only get to the future in every present moment. >> Every second. It's the only way we get to the future. So the future really does not even exist except in our minds. So, if we can bring the best of our presence and our being to every given moment, we're going to quote unquote win. What I mean by winning is we're going to succeed and we're going to be more happy because you guys both had years and I did too. And I tell these stories in the book. I tell a story real quick about holding my daughter. She was 11 months old, my only daughter. I have three sons. And I held her in a pool in Mexico on a spring break. Luckily, the boys were splashing around and crazy. I held her and I was just weeping because I had missed the first 11 months of her life. I had missed it. You guys know that feeling in times and seasons. >> I've had that. >> And um I promised to her right. I her crystal green eyes looked up at me. We just dropped her off at BYU, so I'm a little emotional about it like a day or two ago, but they looked up at me and it was like, "Daddy, are you really here? Are you with me?" >> Yeah. >> I had missed those 11 months. I can never get those back. >> Yeah. >> So, >> at least you caught it at 11 months. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I mean, I mean, there's people that let that go for 18 years. >> Amen. And And I guess I'm encouraging everyone and just saying that we only get to the future in every present moment. >> Yeah. And the way to have outsized outcomes, to have outsized rewards, quote unquote, as an entrepreneur, as a father, >> as a leader, is to be present and to bring our best into every single moment. It's not to be distracted. Again, this is a simple idea that is very hard to implement. It's easy to talk about, but it's hard to implement. And it's often neglected because we think that success is outside of us. >> We think that happiness somehow is outside of us. We don't actually believe it's inside us. But I guess I'm just here to tell you >> based on my 48 years of experience, you'll read a lot about that in the book. I've had a lot of very different experience. That is what we're looking for is inside of us. Because because what you're saying too, there's a number of things in my life that I do share with entrepreneurs that resonate with that so much. For instance, I was one time somebody told me this very important thing. Said, "Hey, John, if you get to a million net worth, then you're going to want 10 million net worth." There's always somebody with more, always something you can strive for, something you can do to get more, right? And it doesn't matter. And then you're 100 million, you want a billion. And there's billionaires that feel poor when they hang around 10 billionaires. and 10 billionaires, they get poor when they're around the hundred billionaires. And so it never stops. And I've talked to Tyler a lot about this. I said, "It doesn't matter where you're at. You've got to enjoy the moment, the present moment where you're at and where you've achieved." And my wife taught me that one time. I came three times in my career. I came to Susan and I said, "Susan, I'm taking a big risk here on this. If this doesn't work, we're back to a one-bedroom apartment >> with a small little 9-in black and white TV and particle board shelves again. >> Okay? This house, we're not going to be able to keep it." Okay. So, I did that three different times. >> The very first time I came to her and said that, she goes to me and says, "That's all right. >> I loved you back then. I was happy back then. I'd be happy again. I'm happy wherever we're at." >> That freed me up also to take risks. >> Yeah. >> And she taught me that just enjoy wherever you're at. >> Yeah, for sure. And I I I think that again, >> you can overlay that story, John. I don't want to get too woo woo or spiritual. >> Yeah. Startup is is kind of like life. >> Yeah. >> You It's a big risk to >> quote unquote come here to Earth. It's a big risk to start over, to forget to These are the big ideas that I talk about in the book and I I try to overlay the evolution of AI on top of kind of my spiritual evolution and then where I think humanity is going in the future. Um, >> and yeah, so anyways, I I think it's an important >> No, I love it. I love it. You know, back to the business side for the entrepreneurs here and I said earlier in this podcast that the second startup after a successful firsttime guy >> actual if a guy fails and learns a lot about himself and who he is and what he wants out of life and how to look things with good perspective, >> his second startup is a good bet. That's where you want to be. That's the good bet. >> And the statistics bear that out. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. Thank you. This has been amazing. >> Are we already done? >> No. Well, I think so. >> I did notice cuz I was so engrossed in the conversation. You're you're great. We could talk for hours. You and I could do that. I know. But we're like at an hour or more. We usually do about an hour. But but I would like to say >> as a concluding thing because I like to ask this question >> two tips if you could. You're talking to >> entrepreneurs at the early stages. They're wanting to get into starting a company. >> I like where he's going with this. >> What are two tips? If you had just these couple minutes to give them two tips about how they should approach entrepreneurship, what would they be? >> This is very easy for me. I'll give one very practical tick tip and one a little bit more high level. The practical tip is product market fit is all that matters early in early stage. >> Like until you have product market fit, there's no reason to layer on a ton of gas. Like it's all about product market fit. You need someone that's not related to you to buy your product or to show interest and traction. >> So an awesome product and a present market. You got to have an awesome product and a market that's present. If you don't have both of those, >> yeah, you don't have it. Yeah. You need to keep you're wandering in the dark a little bit. You need to find it. >> I think you said and then don't press on the accelerator. Where a lot of failure comes from is people before they have product market fit. They're on their way to finding it. All of a sudden they assume they have it when they really don't. They press on the accelerator and burn their runway. >> They're too impatient and or they get caught up in the excitement and hype without really listening to the customer or to the market. And no, we don't really have product market fit. So that'd be number one. Number two would be it's a little more esoteric which is where I but always prioritize relationships over results. And I say that as a guy who hasn't always done that and I think we all probably have failed at that at times where the bottom line, the exit, the whatever >> was more important sometimes than people. And that's just a short way to live. I talk about in the book the old game versus the new game. And I think the new game is about prioritizing relationship, human, real human relationship. That's really what we want. That's really what we're going to have to fight for. >> There's a huge problem in the next generation. >> Absolutely. It is. This is something we're going to have to fight for and hold on to. And so I would just I tell my entrepreneurs all the time, my the students at BYU, always and this again is easy to talk around in this nice little podcast studio, but when the pressure is on, I'm just telling you from someone who's made mistakes sometimes in this regard, always prioritize relationships over results. Because the ultimate result that every human wants is intimate relationships and connection. That's that's what you want. There's nothing that makes a more rich life. It's not about a bank account. It's not about blah blah blah. It's about human connection and relationship. >> And by the way, if you believe in an afterlife, the only thing that would ever go with you is that nothing else goes with you. Right? So that's kind of an interesting concept. >> And and in conclusion, relating that back to entrepreneurs, it's maybe not so much about the speed or the shiny new tool or the scaling. It's really about the passion and the why behind your what you're building and what you're doing. So I love it. >> Yeah. I you don't get to the finish line anyway in entrepreneurship unless you really feel hey I'm bringing this product or service to market because I'm actually believing that it's going to improve people's lives if it makes their job easier or more productive you're doing something to help people that's a >> which goes back to PMF I mean like helping building great products that change the world that actually impact people's life that they actually treat >> is about the relationship between the entrepreneur and the customer that's not that's not you're a genius you put it all together in two tips about life >> all right let's wrap it up. All right. Thank you so much, Jeff, for coming on. Seriously, it was an amazing convers. I really did feel like we were just like at a lunch jamming. It was awesome. Thank you for watching. Like, subscribe, share, >> and buy a copy of the book. Let's number one on the bestseller list. >> The last book written by a human. Yeah. People can follow me anywhere at Jeff Burningham. I'm not hard to find, too. >> Amazon.com. Just go buy it. >> And honestly, Jeff is just such a good dude. Like, just just go follow him. Follow what he's doing. He's a great guy to know and he's just a good human. So, thank you, Jeff. We love it. Thank you. This is it. We're wrapping up. And tune in next time. X2 rock X2 rock.