Dustin Robins

I had a steady job, but a tsunami in Japan laid off 10% of the people. It was right after Thanksgiving. I got let go. It was my boss's boss. I met one time. >> Yeah. >> Just to fire me. You never know what will happen. Like entrepreneurship is not as risky as people think. >> The only guarantee of working for the man is a twoe notice guarantee. >> Yeah. Dustin Robbins of Corporate Traditions. Corporate Tradition does tens of millions of dollars in revenue. The reason this is going to be a great episode is because Dustin is one of the greatest practitioners of lean startup. If you want to learn how to do lean startup right from what people have taken our teachings and applied them, Dustin's a great exampler of that. >> Yeah. Don't skip steps. They're they're out there for a reason. X. >> Welcome to the Startup Ignition podcast. We are back, but we are in a different room, so this feels a little weird and off, but we're going to roll with it. So, welcome back to the Startup Ignition Podcast. This is your startup podcast for your journey from idea to exit. We're here trying to help you. I'm Tyler. Over in the other corner of the room is John. >> Hello. Hello. And we have a new guest today. We are super excited to introduce to the Startup Ignition community, even though you've been around our community for a long time, so you're no new news. We are excited to welcome Dustin Robbins of Corporate Traditions who has been through the program. I have a little bio on you Dustin. I didn't send it to you for approval. Hopefully you can correct me in line here. Don't mess it up. >> So Dustin is a serial entrepreneur and CEO of corporate trai traditions a pleasant grove Utah based company simplifying employee gifting with personalized choice driven programs for employee gifting. the gift you picked, gift card plus, and even grocery vouchers, which is a there's a long history there. And Dustin began with this idea back all the way back when you took Startup Ignition Boot Camp, which was what year? What year did you come through? First come through. >> Timelines are crazy since 2020. So, I apologize for that, but it was probably >> 2016. Yeah, probably uh ooh 201 >> 15 >> 2015 started corporate traditions with some partners and then it was probably 2 years after that that I took the first >> 16 17ish around exactly >> but you've you've actually returned and even brought employees and a ton of entrepreneurial friends through the program. So you've gone through the boot camp multiple times. So I'm sure that timeline >> I want to I want to pause for a second and just get two hooks in here for people that just listened the f first little bit of this. The reason this is going to be a great episode is because Dustin is one of the greatest practitioners of lean startup that has come through the program. >> Yeah. >> Okay. That's super important. If you want to learn how to do lean startup right from what people have taken our teachings and applied them, Dustin's a great exampler of that. >> He's really learned the art of validating but also invalidating as well. And so, but that's really important. And then number two, if you're just if you're a company, a business, and you need to give gifts to your employees, no company's better than corporate traditions, and you should check that out. >> Yeah, we stick by that. And also, you know, I don't know how much we can reveal here, but corporate tradition does tens of millions of dollars in revenue. Just for the listener and viewer to >> that are listening to this, like this is a no joke of a company. So, we're excited history of how it got there. We're gonna have fun with that. >> Oh, yeah. So, we're going to go through all of that. And you know, before we do, >> I don't know if you've watched any of the podcasts, we're going to spring an icebreaker on you just to get into the flow of the podcast. Everybody's sitting back into their chair, especially in this new environment that we're in, this new room, a little new studio that we're filming in today. >> Um, we are doing rapid fire rituals. So, both John and Dustin are going to participate. It's just I'm going to give you I don't know how many questions it is. uh 10 questions and I'm gonna ask you if what you do for this particular ritual. Are okay you ready? >> Grab your fire. >> Okay. What is your morning ritual? Do you have any morning ritual that you do every day, every week, every month? Something that you do? >> Um sleep in as much as I can. >> Still sleep during during school. It's it's kids stuff. Get them off to school. I play pickle ball. Uh every morning I have a little group that does that. Then get back to work. So you do some kind of pickle ball, get kids off to school. So you're pretty you focused in the morning and then you get off to work. >> Yeah. >> How about you, Dad? >> Well, I don't know what you mean by ritual, but the first thing I do when I get up is literally go to the bathroom and then the second thing I do is check my text to see if there's any urgent items that I have to pay attention to. >> Okay. How about an organizational ritual or do you have like a calendar or a to-do list? Do you have any kind of organization ritual that you're doing? Either one of you? >> Uh, not really. I check emails. I star emails that are like super important. Uh, so I go through like kind of the new star emails. Yeah, that helps you knock out stuff. And then there's stuff like I can get to that in a few hours, things like that. >> I have a very sophisticated Gmail overlay that prioritizes that. I do that, but text first, then email. And I am a big follower of the Franklin Planner system. So, I use Google's task list, but applying the Franklin Planner system to organizing to know what's the most important and the urgent items. Yeah. How about um here's another ritual. How about any kind of team ritual? Are you doing anything with employees or team members? That's a ritual that you're doing all the time. Maybe like, I don't know, something with the sales team or something with the customer support team or staff or wherever you go to a trade show. Any kind of team ritual that you're doing at corporate traditions. >> Uh not rituals. We have the Monday morning sales >> like download. >> It's the Yeah, the meeting. It's quick, dirty, get get everything going. Um, so that's set on the calendar every Monday morning. >> Did you ever do anything >> team rituals? Fixed meetings, of course. We did lots of that, but team rituals. >> So, just calendar team meetings. >> Yeah. I mean, I did fun stuff over the years at my companies like I would put out uh trivia contests and distribute those. This is remember I worked you guys weren't even born when I started working of course and uh I would distribute lots of fun stuff. We didn't have email, text or anything to communicate. >> He was faxing. He was faxing back and forth. >> They're called memos. Okay. How about any kind of learning ritual like podcasts hard sell for this podcast podcast a book or like are you doing anything ritually when it comes to learning or education? >> Yeah. Uh I listen to your podcast of course there's another one my first million is is one of the best business ones besides your guys'. Um, and then I I always listen to business books and now I've I've switched to reading those business books with a like pen and paper, right? So, I'm taking notes. So, podcast listen, reading business books. >> Cool. How about you? I >> I'm super devoted now to the All-In podcast. The All-In podcast is if I'm in my car, I'm always playing the All-In podcast. And right now, I'm like two or three episodes behind because we've been so busy lately and I'm trying to catch up and I don't like taking them out of sequence. So I got to get caught up. >> That's also because John is a big politic guy. He he you like to follow the recent >> Oh, there's things are politics and different things, >> but also it's it's still a great business and venture podcast. No, >> it's really pivoted to politics. >> The whole thing. Well, it's pivoted to politics, but it's also the it's not just politics. It's >> the future and what's coming with AI and business and the huge things out of Silicon Valley and the massive tech companies and the trends and where things are going. I like the four uh people and their guests and the perceptions they give off and what they think is going to happen. Like I just listened to it on the way driving to this recording and I'm telling you it was good stuff >> and I mean they just have access to that that the average human doesn't have access to. >> Yeah. Well, they they have a lot of access and a lot of interesting concepts. It was just really fascinating too what I heard beforehand, but that's a whole another topic. But anyway, >> so okay, last one, fifth one. You ready? any kind of like focus ritual like are you listening to instrumental music or are you sitting there in silence? Are you yogaing or any kind of like hyperfocus thing that you're doing? >> Uh not really. If I got to get really focused if cuz I like to work at night my wife and like there's a movie on. If I like hey I got to focus on this I'll listen to some like instrumental music just to like focus on that last email. >> Do you like working at night? Is that kind of a ritual for you? You >> like night owl? Yeah. Cuz you can like >> for me it's like hey this has to be done. If I start at 10:00 I can get it done at 1, right? Or it just doesn't end until I I'm done. Morning. You're like if I get up at 5, I got a meeting at 7:00. It's like I only have two hours to do it. >> That's exactly how I feel. I told people that all my career. I said I'm a night owl. I work at night and not in the morning because I the day starts at 8 o'clock at the office and that's a deadline at 10 PM if I start a project I can go to 4 am. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Just go till you get it done. >> Okay. Well, >> yeah. One other focus I do um that I really enjoy though I do like learning and focus. My time is I like to veg out so to speak and and by educating myself on different topics like my favorite are his some history, true crime, um business stuff and I love it's become more and more where I just I can do that with really quick videos I find on YouTube that are very educational. I' I've really loved I follow this Instagram account that does like ancient Roman history every day >> and it's so intriguing like just oh this road that was built like 5,000 years ago or just last year they uncovered some tomb or found some new city. It's like it's insane that archaeological aspect it was good rapid fire rituals. So I just caught you guys both off guard to see what your guys' habits and rituals are. Okay, let's move into the actual story. Dustin, take us back to I don't know wherever you want to start like where where did entrepreneurship where did like that you >> realizing that you wanted to be a business owner begin rather than you know maybe going and working a 9 to5. >> Yeah, let's go way back. Born born born in Cypio 300 people. But I >> we talk about that a lot, don't we? Cio come visit come visit Cypio Rodeo's coming up. Um, no. I just like I I went door to door. I sold these I sold cards door too. Um, there was always things I did. I didn't really know what I was doing in the sense of I'm a business owner. I'm an entrepreneur. Just like, >> hey, let's go buy this and resell it. Like >> look looking back, I'm like, "Wow, I always did that, but I didn't know. It was just like in the blood." >> To our viewers and listeners, I'll tell you humans naturally barter to survive. Sugar for salt. That's a natural thing. The next step up in business is you become a small business person which is you acquire something for a certain price, sell it for more than you acquire it for and have a profit. >> And that's getting in there. And then entrepreneurship and venture entrepreneurship is when you actually do much more sophisticated things to create profit in business and what you've gone into. But what you were doing was just being a human >> and you went to the next level beyond bartering to be a small business person. And that and that's that's everybody's a barter as a human. Then some can be good small business people and then a much smaller piece of the human pie can become venture entrepreneurs. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And yeah, it was just always in there. And so yes, fast forward I was like oo I want to I really like video stuff. I also liked um investing like didn't really know like the stock market. Try to learn a little bit about that. So after my mission, I was like, "Hey, I'm going to do financial planning because you can build your own business. As that grows, you grow." Like that's what I thought I was going to do. So I did went to Westminster, got certified. I sell, you know, I could sell securities, bonds, life insurance, and 7 months into that, I knew that wasn't what I was going to do. >> Why? It was just a drag or what? >> It was like, "Yeah, I love that stuff, but like Tyler, let's look at your money." Like I didn't like doing that for other people. >> Yeah. >> It was like uhoh. >> And guess what I did? I worked in the business for three more years >> cuz that's what we do. So I always tell people like once you find out that's not what you want to do. >> Yeah. >> It's not failure. You figure it out. That's not what you want to do. So now your job is to get out of there. So I I don't just quit. I had kids and things, but so anyway, it took me three years. Went to I was like, oh, I loved the the the video side. I loved like marketing things like that. So, I'm like, oh, how to do how to switch? You got to get a degree in that. So, I got a master's online through through um um Fullale University, which is out of Florida, and got a master's in internet marketing, which is crazy because everything I learned was already 6 months behind. Yeah, >> you look at YouTube. >> So, I wasted a lot of money there. Um, but uh I got a job at Adobe and that kind of switched my whole my whole career path. >> At Adobe doing what? >> I was an account uh manager. We had >> anybody was spending 50 to about I think 400,000 a year. Um I was I had some accounts that way. So big, you know, big company. Um Brad Wrencher was our CEO. His messages were cool, but it just a huge company. People I worked with was good, but it was just the benefits were great, but I was like, I don't like this. I don't like this. So, I was like, hey, maybe I should do some video stuff. Saw that video marketing had now like cameras were like five grand instead of 50 grand. I was like, that's what I want to do. So, kind of validated that. Had had I got a couple clients while I was working at Adobe. Um, and then something crazy happened. Two things happened. Um, I told my wife, I'm like, "I need to quit." Thinking we had a mortgage and three kids, thinking like, "You can't quit. You're crazy. Like, you got to stay there." She said, >> "Yeah, why don't you quit and start your own thing?" And now I had no excuse. I'm like >> to go. >> Oh crap. So yeah, her dad was a home builder, still is, and she just knows there's ups and downs. You have your own business. like she knew the ups and downs. So I was really blessed to have a wife that was was on board right now. I didn't have any excuses. Um so I was like, "Okay, now I'm waiting for the perfect time to quit cuz they have a lot of benefits and things like that." And um I got let go and December. Yeah, it was right after it was right after Thanksgiving. I got let go and they brought me in and I was pretending to be very sad. I didn't know how companies big companies worked. I thought the sadder you are the more severance you got. No, I was like I've been there a year. You get you get one month severance. Like doesn't matter. So I'm just like had my head down and the guy you it was my boss's boss I've met one time. >> Yeah. >> Just to fire me and let they let go 10% of the company. >> Boom. 10%. Um let's another I'll get to that. Um, so I was just super sad and they're like, "Here's your paperwork. You can go go get your severance and this go around and go get that." I'm like, "Okay." So I go to I go into the room they told me to go into and there's a guy there and he's like just talking me down like everything's okay. And I'm like, I'm with this guy 15 minutes and by that I'm like, "Hey, I just need some sign some paperwork to like get my severance." Like, "Oh, that's the next room over. We're the counselors to help people." I'm like, I don't need help. I don't I don't need help. So, I went in, signed. I got a month runway. Um, I had a penny stock that went big, had another month runway. And then Adobe, my Adobe stock did not vest. Um, I needed like two more weeks to vest and I got that all back in cash. So, I had three month runway and it was like this is the best ever. >> Okay. >> So, I was going to do Yeah. focus on the the video marketing business. So, wait, you you ended up getting fired instead of quitting Adobe? >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> I got let go. Let go. So, that's the story cuz >> uh do you guys remember what happened? March >> I think it was March 11th, 2011. The tsunami earthquake hit in in Japan. Tsunami hit Japan. >> Disaster. Their nuclear plant was leaking. Yeah, >> Adobe's um Adobe's projection that was that was first quarter. Second quarter didn't hit it cuz their Japan market didn't hit. Third quarter was worse. Fourth quarter they had to lay off 10% of the people. >> Wow. >> So I'm thinking I'm like this is crazy. I had a steady job. I was going to quit but I had a steady job but a tsunami in Japan laid off 10% of the people. >> Yeah. >> So that's where I'm like guys you never know what will happen. Like no >> this entrepreneurship is not as risky as people think like working for somebody and and a tsunami hits. >> The only guarantee of working for the man is a twoe notice guarantee. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's it. Right. So exactly. >> So maybe walk the the listeners through a little bit about your thought process of like being like, "Okay, now I'm ready to quit." Because I think there's probably a lot of listeners and viewers that are listening to this like, "Yeah, >> hey, I have this idea. I've been kicking around this thing for a long time. Like, >> how do you get to the point where it's like, okay, I'm ready to take that leap of faith and be like, I'm going to drop what I have going in my career thus far or this 9 to5 that I have and I'm going to go into >> and it becomes even more intense when you're married with children. >> Yeah, for sure. >> And and maybe I can reiterate what I've heard from your story, which is it sounds like first you got to like validate, right? You got to you got to see that there's an idea that you're is actually worth pursuing >> and then you have to have some kind of >> like safe financial runway like it sound like okay you had three months so you gave yourself like 3 months of time like okay I can support my family for 3 months >> and then I don't know what what else was it just timing like you got you got let go on a whim and that kind of pushed you towards it like >> I was waiting for the stars to line up they're never going to line up so it was validation >> but also That business is a service business, right? So service businesses get to revenue and profit much faster than product companies, including software as a product like SAS or what we call software as a service. But service businesses that where you're trading your time for money or providing a service, you can get to revenue profit faster and need less runway. If you were to go out and do a what we call a scalable venture, you're you in that in your situation where you were at, you would have needed investors. >> Exactly. So, um I had no idea what scalable meant and all that. So, >> you basically just were what we call a technician entrepreneur. You loved making videos and content, felt you were good at it and had knowledge and you said, "Let's make a business out of it." >> Yeah. And I had already I landed two video projects, made cash for it. So I knew the market was there and I knew um that I could make it work once I once I focused full-time on it. Uh then I was able >> Was that the birth of SEO VOD? >> That is the birth of SEO VOD. >> So SEO VOD when I first met you which how long after the launch of SEO VOD did I meet you? Was it a couple years later? >> Oh, it was like five years. >> Five years. So you were working on the business for many years >> and a couple employees. >> But you keep going. But I'm just saying so SEO VOD was not just a videography company that you know there's lots of people that run around do weddings and stuff like you were actually trying to combine SEO search engine optimization and video to help companies market and get more uh leads and and and viewers and >> yeah landing >> which was a which was a good time. I feel like 2011 to 2016, like >> it was kind of the fad in the startup ecosystem and and kind of industry to have the explainer video, have like the what we are and who we are video that you would slap up on YouTube kind of before Instagram and Tik Tok were really a thing. That was how you got your message out like pretty clearly and easily in like a two to three minute explainer video. Did you do a lot of those? Yeah. Yeah. Testimonial type videos. They're about 2 minutes. Went on the website and I optimized them so they could be found online. >> Right. So, one of the things again for the viewers and listeners is if you're going to do this and it you were not just being a meto company cuz there's a lot of videography companies that do weddings and video, right? And then there were a lot of SEO companies, but you were saying I'm going to use video in the SEO tactics. And that combination made you more unique and differentiated. So you got clients. >> Yeah. Exactly. And I worked with business owners which was amazing. I got to talk a little strategy thing. So it scratched all those itches. Um but again it wasn't scalable, right? It was a service. And um >> how did it do though the first few years? >> Uh first year I mean uh it took about two years and then I had I was making more money than Adobe um in three years started hiring people and it was it was great. Um, but one thing I found, the busier I got, I hired more people, so my profit would be go down. Like, wow, I need people. >> People are expensive. >> They're very, they're very expensive. But the best part of SEO VOD um was that I was able to uh meet John. So, I was like just networking all the time, networking events, >> right? That's how you were finding clients, right? >> Yep. Exactly. and I met John at a networking event and he told me about um startup ignition and um I wanted to be a supporter of that. So that's how we became. >> You actually thought is there some video work I could do here too. >> Yeah. Became a supporter of like the sponsors you call them supporters and so >> um >> to do videos for the participants of the little did you know your eyes would be opened right well I knew business John like why would I need to like learn business? I've been doing it 5 years and that was literally um yeah the mindset and um >> I don't cuz we actually talked cuz you were going to make another class. >> You're like maybe another I don't know if you remember but like >> I I've always been kind of people always wanted me to put my live boot camp experience in videos, right? And so we talked a little bit about that. But I think we need to interject here too. When did I'm just going to call it this way. When did the turkeys come into play? >> Oh yeah. Yeah. So the turkey so you you ado when where did and before we tell more about it but you basically got the idea and saw and how lucrative was you started on the side doing this turkey business. Tell me about that and when did that happen? >> Because I was meeting lots of different businesses. Uh I met a couple that knew that business and so I'm like hey let's just do it ourselves and they said that sounds great. We don't know business and I said I don't know turkeys. Let's do it together. So, we became 50/50 partners, which is not good, which is not a John teaches not to do 5050. >> That's not That's an anti- John thing. >> Okay. But, but let's >> That was 20 That was 2015. >> Okay. So, you had started SEO VAD already. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. How many years you were doing this thing on the side with these >> turkey and so then you and Tell them about that. What What did you like about the turkey idea? Called the turkey idea. Yeah. Tell us. >> Yeah. There there are vouchers. They're good for turkey ham, fruits, and vegetables. We still sell them today, but that was the only thing we focused focused on. And it was 100% October, November, and December sales. And that's it. It was >> So you basically went to companies and said, "Hey, you want a gift for your employees? Give them a turkey." Like they did like they did 150 years ago. >> We And just the 50s. I'm talking that's what they did in 1850. >> Right. Exactly. And uh companies still hand out turkeys or turkey vouchers. We just say, "Hey, this is why ours are better." We have relationships with the stores. We can put the company's logo on it. We can do a message. We can do all we can do a lot of different stuff. >> How long was that going when you met me? About one or two years. >> Uh that was that was going uh two years when I met you and I had just bought out my partners. 50/50 doesn't work. >> Yes. >> And so they were going to buy me out or I was going to buy them. >> First thing I teach in the boot camp, right? Yeah. Exactly. And you discovered that on your own, right? >> Okay. So, so basically you were f when you met me five years into SEO VAD >> video and then two years into >> the turkey gift company. >> Okay. And then you met me in a networking event. We tal you know maybe some promotional videos and stuff we're talking but then you decided to attend the actual boot camp. >> Exactly. and and the goal was to keep SEO VOD going and then the fourth um the last three months of the year really focus on the turkeys get a nice low cash bonus but live off SEO bot and so I was going to do videos for your students and you're like hey the best way to do that is come to a class >> and I'll give you 5 minutes just to like get in front of everybody and I came early to listen to this but I didn't need to hear anything else I knew business. Why? Why would it? And I was like, whoa, this is this is different. This is how you scale. This is uh actually the slide ch changed my life. Was >> what slide was that? >> There was a slide that John has still there cuz I take startup recognition every year. I know it's still there. There's a stat that says how much you make if you graduate from high school, how much you graduate from college, if you're a doctor, lawyer. Yeah. And as those as you get more education, you know, the salary goes up. And then John says, "What my friends say, you won't say it's you, but what my friends say is those are rounding. Entrepreneurship, true scalable business, it's millions." >> Let's have Jordan put that up. That slide right here, right now, bottom line, that that just >> that blew your mind. >> That was a paradigm shift for me. >> Yeah. It shows what the lifetime earnings potential are depending on how much education you have. >> And then you get to the highest earnings which are professionals like doctors, attorneys. >> Mh. >> And then you learn that entrepreneurs, they think those numbers are low. >> Yeah. >> Yes. Exactly. So they're ju Yeah. It just changed and and again I was an entrepreneur. I was still there. I knew these things, but then like hearing it from somebody that's done it. >> Yeah. >> I don't think I've ever heard somebody say that and you could go ask them questions, right? I've read about it, but like, whoa, this is someone that's done it. >> When you say you're an entrepreneur, what I like to say, you were a small business person >> and you needed to understand the concepts of scalability. Yes. And that you can not just have a business provide you a living, >> but you can create an asset independent of you that is worth a lot and will make you wealthy. >> Yes. >> Yes. Exactly. >> That's and SEO VOD was >> that's the paradigm shift, right? >> And SEO VOD was me. Once I focused on that, that the business pretty much shut down. I had a couple clients that I just gave away. But like, >> yeah, >> I was hustling, hustling, hustling, getting clients, getting clients. And you make a good living, but like once I was done, I was done. >> Corporate traditions is running. >> Here's what here's what I remember is day one, as you know, in the boot camp, we make sure your idea is worthy to spend your time and resources on. >> And day one really focuses on, and you had these two companies, and you after you were kind of wanting to be a vendor to me, and we were talking about that, you said, "No, I want to be a student in this." >> Yeah. After that slide, I'm like, I want to sign in for your next one. >> Yeah. So, you came and I remember you coming on day one. You came to me at the end of day one and go, SEO VOD sucks, doesn't it? >> You said something like that. And >> I said, "It's not scalable." >> Yeah. And >> And then you said, "Yeah, don't do that." >> And And then you told me about this other one you hadn't told me about before, the turkey business, which is now called Corporate Traditions. It probably was then, too. But I go, "Uh, that's much better." >> Exactly. And you literally right then and there I think shifted >> in your brain and you and when you stopped paying attention to SEO VAD because it was all you a service businesses a service business is the founder >> and when you didn't pay attention to it >> it went down >> and then when you paid a little bit of attention to the scalable business what happened >> um so that's where my business partner came in as well uh you talk about that like you can do it alone but it's much better to have somebody else and I had just met >> I want to make that clear what you just said personally I believe and it's pretty much known a scalable venture that's going to create wealth and that has all the parts and pieces needed to scale is you you cannot do it alone a lone wolf is like not going to happen you need co-founders >> yeah and that was and and I had talked to my business partner we just barely met and he was just like hey can I help you with this I'm like no because I just bought out my other partners like you don't I don't want another partner partners stink, right? Like >> and so then learning about this like, oh, I maybe need him. Um, and then, um, he came to a couple events cuz we we set up our booth at event and talked to HR HR managers, directors. Um, and then his his name is Brian Samson. Uh, he was just killing it. >> Killing it, of course. um he'll be in part two of their next podcast. Uh but he yeah just killed it and was like I really I honestly didn't have the money to bring him on but it's like from what I hear from what he does I'm like I need to bring him on. So I went and got a small business loan to get him on and that by the time that paperwork was done uh Brian had already made his like money back. So we like got our loan and had it for like a month and did that. But um but we had to put up the house for like >> Yeah. >> But my wife was again she was so supportive of this like hey this is what it's going to do. So yeah uh Brian was awesome. Came in as a true partner and we did it we did it right. We did it with slicing pie. So slicing pie is you don't really figure out what ownership you have yet until you earn earn and we figured it out. So he came in and we just wanted a small percent to get him away from his other business. And after a year and a half, he he was he's far suppressed what we >> Let's have Jordan share just a image about slicing pie and then I'll explain it real quickly. So because that's really important. Slicing pie about of the of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of ventures that have been through the boot camp about 50 of employed slicing pie. It's a new approach to when you start a company, it is actually quite silly to fix the percentage ownership on day zero when you haven't worked together and don't know the true value of each's contribution. So slicing pie can fix those problems. And so far, just to let the viewers and listeners know, anybody that's used slicing pie never afterwards tells me, "Oh, we shouldn't have done that." But there's lots of people said, "We should have done that." >> Yeah. It's just it's a simple formula that splits up the equity of a startup based off of contribution and effort measured over time. Measured over time, >> right? So instead of hard baking it and hence slicing the pie, hard baking it on day one and then founder A is slacking, founder B is pulling everybody and founder C is never even coming around. It's like why would you do 33% 33% 33%. It's like let's let's let this metriculate a little bit. Let's watch how everybody's efforts are contributing and then let's divvy it up. So, you're happy you did that? >> Very happy. And it worked out. And and a lesson I've seen this too cuz once you're like 50/50 or 30 33 even if that person and now it's set in stone like now they they know that they're they even know they're not doing great, but they're not going to give up something. We talk about they're not giving up in the boot camp. We talk all >> So, let's let's review real quick cuz Dustin, you came into the boot camp. You learned about the principle of scalability, product companies versus service-based companies. That like was a light bulb. Obviously, the entrepreneurship is a wealth creating, you know, endeavor, right? You that blew your mind. Then you learned about uh team and what it takes to make a team. Then you learned about slicing pie and how to set up that team equally. I mean, you're just like implementing every single step of like the startup ignition methodology like to a tea and it's really refreshing to see where you are today. >> Here's the reality. You came you came in like a lot of people though I know business I don't need any of this and then you said that changed my mind that it was a revelation to me and then you said I'm going to adopt all of this and literally this is why I say you're one of the best practitioners. You did everything by the book, meaning the startup ignition method of employing lean startup properly and you did that and it's paid big dividends. We'll get there, but it's really worked for you. >> Let's let's let's go back to corporate traditions and the and the way that that evolved over time. So, you met Brian, you got him involved, you did slicing pie, he started pulling his weight, he was selling like a hot I don't know uh a car salesman on a hot day, I don't know, whatever. And and we had one product. >> And you only had you only had the turkey product. >> Yeah. >> You only had the turkey product. >> I didn't know how to have other products. >> Going to HR conferences like literally selling turkey certificates. >> Yeah. >> And then you didn't know until what? >> Until startup ignition. And when we're taking these classes, Brian became a partner while I was taking the classes. And it used to not be a three-day boot camp. >> Yeah. >> So it'd be it would be like five weeks. >> It'd be Tuesday, Thursday. So, I'm learning how to validate >> while we're working on the company. >> So, we're like, "Oh, why don't we ask HR what they want?" Like, >> yeah, >> as Steve Link says, like, >> you ask the customer what they want before you start building something they don't want. >> Exactly. And so, we build products after that. But the Steve Blank says, uh, common sense hidden in plain sight. >> Steve Blank, the father of lean startup. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And we're big or devotees of that. Yeah. >> Yeah. We started asking, "Why aren't you buying turkey vouchers?" And they're like, "Well, we give out gift cards and like, what do you like about what do you don't?" Well, they we found out that like, yeah, to buy gift cards is is a nightmare, especially if you're doing like 200, 300. They treat you like a criminal. If you went to Kroger right now or Smith's and and said, "I want, you know, all my all 200 of my employees need a gift card." You have to pull out your your social security like social security number and you pull out your driver's license. And they're annoyed. They're like so annoyed. And this is what HR has been doing for a long time. Yeah. >> And so then people like I don't want a grocery. >> And so we saw, you know, we're not the pioneers of this, but we saw what other people were doing and like wa if we built something that allows you to pick whatever gift card you want. Would you take it? And they said yes. Then we built it. >> There's a huge principle there which is don't fall in love with your idea. like be open to solving or actually fall in love with solving a real customer pain, right? It's like and then prove it before you build it. Like you took that to heart >> and you could have just chugged along with turkeys and just said, "No, this is what you need. This is what you want." >> The slogan we use in the lean startup world is you have to earn the right to build. In other words, you don't just build it and hope they'll come. You go talk to your target customer with your hypothesis >> and then often you find out it needs to be tweaked big time >> until you solve the real problem. And then once you've validated that they have the problem, they like your solution, then you start building. >> So did you take that gift card idea back to those HR directors and be like, "Okay, hey, we're going to do this. What do you think?" >> And it was it was 100% like >> gang busters. >> We're we're building this like, "Okay, yeah, we'll build that." And they said, "Let us know when that's built." Yeah. Oh, >> we had a smart guy, Christopher Bushman. He built it all on Shopify. We Everything was on Shopify and he figured out how to do that on that. So, >> you just whipped up a Shopify store. >> Yeah, we had that's how we did started. Yeah, >> that's everything was on Shopify from day one. >> Wow. >> And so, he figured out how to like take a gift card and turn it into a gift card. So, we were able to fulfill it. We fulfilled these things one by one. >> Oh my god. >> We built a code one by one, sent it. So like we'd get an order of like 500. I would click 500 times. >> We didn't have a CTO at this time that we were just figuring out validating. And so the holidays were nightmare. I'd fulfill it. I'd get on uh PayPal used to sell gift cards. >> But you were valid business model. >> Yes. I would buy gift cards through PayPal all day all night. All night >> to the We're going to use a lot of teaching moments here because the viewers and listeners, we call that a paper MVP. You don't have to build a full working MVP. That's perfect to get customers and test to see if they'll really behave and buy what you want. Your paper MVP was you one by one doing 500 cards. >> That literally is the definition of MVP. Like it got the job done. Of course, it took you probably late nights doing >> 500. But it doesn't have to be a finished product and perfect. Yeah. You you just see if the customer if because you were solving a customer problem because right now I see corporate traditions as solving legions of office managers, receptionists and assistants to the CEO who are given lastm minute instructions to go buy gifts for the employees and they're handed a car credit card and go down to the Kroger's and buy 500 >> gift cards. Right. And that happens all over America every holiday season. Yeah. and you have a complete nice elegant solution for that. But the principle there is just get your product in front once they told you yes I want that right that was the moment you're like I just got to get my product out in front of users as fast as possible even if it's super rough and then just relentlessly refine it over time right that's the MVP principle in a nutshell so let me ask you this since and so in other words and you did this and figured this all out and then it just has steadily grown year-over-year at amazing growth and and I'm talking viewers and listeners this is from nothing, selling turkeys for a few months a year at first with, >> you know, as a small business person, and now you're into multiple tens of millions of revenue, and that's all we're going to say about that. >> You're very successful. >> We hit 25 million in revenue last year, and our goal is to hit 30 million this year, and we're on track. >> And and we're going to clap to clap for that. Amazing accomplishment and all that. So right now, what would be like if you had to list it off, what did you get from the boot camp that you think enabled you to go and have the successful path? What's like the you've shared a couple key things, but if you had to list it, what's the teachings or principles that stand out? >> Yeah, I don't know if there's anything uh new. I mean, we've already talked about a bunch of them. One one other thing, too, I was um that not to skip steps, right? Yeah. They're laid out in front of and I watch a lot of people skip steps. So you're basically saying the startup ignition method of lean startup is step by step. >> Yeah. And you have to the owner or equity owner has to talk to decision makers. Yeah. >> It can't be outsourced, right? Cuz a salesperson doesn't know how to adjust on the spot because that's you wrote they get a script and and obviously it's Yeah, we're not saying they're robots, but it's just different like here's the price. There's a difference between knowing how to sell the product and >> to know the business model like to understand the inner workings of like actually how you deliver business to customer >> and sometimes you don't you don't even know what the product is. So it's really hard for somebody to sell it that's not a decision maker to to tweak some things. So what we say in lean startup is that only the founder can pivot in the very moment in talking to a customer validating right then and there the founder can say we're pivoting right now. >> Yeah. >> And the next sales call I do or the next interview I have with the target customer, >> I'm presenting this new business model. It might be a micro pivot or it might be a major pivot. >> Yeah. Exactly. Um, and my the first time I took the class, uh, you said 10% of you are going to follow these instructions to a tea and a lot of you aren't. And I verbally committed. I'm like, I will be that one that follows it to the 10. So, I was stuck. I had to I had to follow it to a tea. But yeah, don't skip steps. They're they're out there for a reason. Lean startup there's Yeah, it's it's >> common. It's common sense. Yeah. I've seen people with uh successful people with money try to skip steps cuz they cuz it's easier to not skip when you don't have any money. You have to be very >> careful >> creative and you can't you can't afford not to skip. >> Conra constraint breeds creativity. Yes. Exactly. So >> if you're unconstrained and have unlimited resources, you can mess up. that helped us big time with corporate traditions not to have a large like large money to like >> so now that you're >> to buy shortcuts there's no shortcuts. >> So you're you we've already conveyed this your successful story. You follow these principles and all that but you you've commented to me many times and you actually sometimes get up on a your own podium when you're talking to people entrepreneurs saying this process works don't skip steps. So you has it been kind of discouraging to you to see people skip steps even people that you told them to go get the same knowledge and then they skip steps. Why do you think people do that? >> I don't know. You talked me down once. I'm like are you just I like I I've referred many people through. Some some been successful, some skip steps, but uh you know who you are. Uh I I would text you that one time like John, how do you deal with this? cuz you see that every day people you taught and um but it's very discouraging. I don't uh you just you just push on I guess. >> What do you think it is about? >> I have no like I just want to see these there's some people that just have the entrepreneur the like the drive the skills to do that. I used to think everybody should be an entrepreneur. That's not true, right? Like it's just >> some people don't have it. Yeah. >> Uh and and that and that's totally fine. That's nothing wrong. like I just uh for me I had to do this but I just see people very qualified and they're entrepreneurs but they skip steps so it's very discouraging. >> So here's what let's see if you agree with me a little bit. So skipping steps you already mentioned one >> people that think they know it all they just skip steps because they know how to do it even though they really don't. Okay number two number two money. If they have resources, they think money can gloss over the need to do the steps. Yeah. >> Or cover up problems from not doing the steps. Right. All that. Also, it can be it's hard. This is to it's it can be boring and arduous and it's not fun going and talking to 20 target customers and having 16 of them tell them that your current business model sucks. I I I think one of the biggest attributes of a successful entrepreneur is that coachability and the self-awareness to know, okay, like I could be wrong here and that like you came in thinking you were a hot shot with SEO VAD doing this video production company and then you saw not that we wanted to prove you wrong or you know to bring you down or tear you down, but it was like, oh, I'm learning these principles. Okay, maybe I don't know everything that I thought I knew. And when an entrepreneur has that click in their head, that's when success honestly comes because you're open to learning a new way of doing something. You're open to >> fundamentals. You're open to a more disciplined and self-awareness structure. So it's like that I feel like is what makes a good entrepreneur a bad entrepreneur. And I think now that we run a venture fund, like we talk to so many entrepreneurs every day, every week we're talking to scores of of startups. And I can really quickly identify an entrepreneur who's going to be successful versus an entrepreneur who's just going to be so hard-headed that they're not willing to change. They're not willing to pivot. They're not willing to absorb information and admit, you know, a little bit of def of failure to be able to progress. Right? So, it's like, and I think that's what you've done really well is like, oh man, I don't know everything. I'm going to take these teachings and actually do it. What do I have to lose because right now I'm not hitting the success that I want to. And boom, you were on your way, right? >> Yeah. So, how did you handle because I'm known for radical cander and you, by the way, you become a really good friend and I really and I I think it's a case of the apprentice becomes the master because you've done such a good job at really doing it right. But what do you this environment kind of requires radical cander, right? Radical cander and a mentor to a mentee like me to you and being straight shooter with you. SEO >> VOD, >> corporate traditions, thumbs up, which surprised you at first. >> And then and then also radical cander from your target customers. You go out and talk to HR directors. What do they want? What do they need? And they're actually telling you something different than you thought and that you maybe were down the wrong path, right? And it's accepting that kind of thing and being in an environment with radical cander instead of the opposite where you know like I get bothered where mentors and investors like kind of gladand an entrepreneur and in their mind they're going no this entrepreneur is on the wrong path. they're not headed the right way, but they kind of passively just say, "Oh, thanks for sharing that today." >> And they don't tell them what they really think. And I I get a little disturbed because the feedback mechanism for entrepreneurs is investors and mentors. They need to be honest with the entrepreneur and what they're doing. So >> radical cander didn't bug you at first that you were getting told the straight scoop. >> Yeah. So bunch of things we need to talk about. So uh >> so one thing you talked about Tyler like successful entrepreneur I I was going to be successful in SEO bot like there's no doubt about it and there's a million people with a service business that are successful it's the this shift of scalable and like what's it scale it's lifechanging right like >> it's generational life changing you can actually sell the business and things so it's not about like being a non successful entrepreneur >> right >> it's all about it's being a success successful uh scalable entrepreneur, right? And that's what like totally clicked with you guys. Uh John, yeah, you're very very candid, very to the point. Um but you can tell you care, right? You're like >> one of those coaches that like yells at you for missing a lamp, but really wants you to succeed, too. Uh one thing I remember one time I met with you and you're like, you got you're your LLC. You like you need to stop that right immediately. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'll get to that. No, you need to do that. And like I'm like, I'm not I can't I haven't changed that for a while. Like I I couldn't talk to you for months and months and months because you kept talking about that. And he was right. So So we finally changed like two years ago, but I should have changed years ago. Time flies, ladies and gentlemen. Time flies. Get it done. That's a Scott step I skipped because it was like, "Oh, I'll get to I'll get to I'll change from an LLC to a CC Corp." And there's many different reasons for that. But um yeah, so you were very candid on that and it's some people might not come back to you because like I didn't do that thing, but it's okay, right? >> Well, we've always had a great relationship in that regard because you're like Tyler's saying, you're very open. You're you put your ambitious to your ambition to be successful ahead of your personal ego, which is really an interesting thing to say. you are very ambitious and want to be successful, but you don't have a personal ego that gets in the way of it. And that's one way to look at it because what Tyler's saying is that some entrepreneurs or founders, they have a really high ego that prevents them from listening to been there, done it people that can share principles and save them a lot of time. It's not gonna save everything, but like we say startup ignition, I personally believe 80 to 85% of the mistakes you would make on your own, you can avoid. >> You're still going to make 15 20% of the mistakes, right? But if you can avoid four-fifths of the mistakes you would make on your own, that'll help you last longer and get to the winning combination. And that's that's the thing. But you have to be willing to take and accept >> that environment of where somebody's telling you, "No, you really need to listen here." Yeah. >> Yeah. and and speed too. Like some things uh you don't have to do, but it's like why don't you just follow the steps so you can save months and time and money? Like it's >> Yeah. >> Like you don't have to do it this way, but you're eventually going to, so might as well start and get there in 6 months instead of six years, >> right? >> Yeah. So that iteration process doing that quicker like once you see evidence of something going well or customer feedback or principle that you're learning >> like don't just ignore it as an entrepreneur like actually take it and be like okay could this be the way instead of being hard-headed and then iterate quickly based off of that evidence and go and try it out right that I I don't know we're covering so much good ground here but we don't have a lot of time left. >> No we don't. So we want to make sure >> I have a shortcut even though we're not supposed to have shortcuts but uh >> I wanted to share this with your listeners was >> um so you need to talk to validation and and so mine was validated now we're validating other products. So yeah >> um you can you if you have a business you can do the same principles to add more product that's actually required that's I mean that's >> at the heart of lean startup is not just in launching your company but then when you want to grow and capture more revenue from existing customers or your market when you come up with a product idea it needs to be validated the same way you can't just assume that you know it all and just launch it that's how huge companies Tyler and I recently um you know have been around large corporations that they burn tens of millions of dollars doing that. Yeah. >> So our short our shortcut um well I already said no shortcuts but this was the shortcut. Well you need to talk to them. How do you get how do you talk to as many people as you can >> um the target market in the shortest period of time is trade shows. >> Setting up a booth. Uh we do we we're at a 100 trade shows a year. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah. And then the one of the biggest ones has 22,000 people. So we set up our booth. We get as many people to come as possible. And we only had two products at one at one time. So we added the gift card plus that's allows you to pick whatever gift card you want. Then we added the gift you pick from after a trade show talking to hundreds and hundreds of people HR professionals in three days. Right. That would have took that would have took three years. >> Well, and that came off of feedback of like I don't want to just give them a blah gift card. But I want to actually give them something they want and desire or >> Yeah. Yeah. I was just talking to like, do you want turkey vouchers? No. Do you want gift cards? No. That we're supposed to tax them. Can you give out tangible gifts? Yeah. Okay. Then the same concepts of, okay, what if you could pick a tangible gift? And they'd say, "We're in." and they'd give us their cell phone number because they had the card with their like their office number, but they would give us their cell phone number and say, "When you have that, call me." >> You just made me think of two other reasons why these people don't follow Lean Startup and do all the steps, too, and why they they they literally, cuz you're bringing this up, is that they just literally go in and think that one pass, one attempt at it. So, oh, I set up 20 interviews. I do the 20 interviews. And by the way, what usually happens in the first two to five, they learn so much. They'll come, they'll stop after two to five cuz cuz what they find out, John, I did two interviews and I know now I was totally wrong. Now I know what I need to do. And have to say, hold on, Buckaroo. You've only done two interviews. The law of statistics says you need to get to at least 20 to be able to, you know, project out to your larger population, right? And what you're saying and also then what happens is when they think it's something that they can do just one time instead of iteratively then when they launch a new product they forget oh I need to treat this like it's a new company within my company >> and I need to go validate it and that's that you're bringing out such great products and people just it's lean startup and validation work is kind of >> you know a tough arduous thing but that's one reason we've done our new thing our new thing called startup academy is now trying to put that on steroids and make it go super fast as best as we can. So hopefully that 10% you were talking about 10 to 15% of startup people that really do it right and you again I'd put you in the top 2%. >> Okay. But >> the ones that >> do it right, hopefully we can expand to 50% of the people that participate. >> Yeah. I love that trade show I like hack because it's like get in front of your customers instead of like asking them out to lunch or going door by door and knocking on their office or you know going and inviting them or email cold emailing them. It's like just go to the trade show where they're all gathering. Get in front of all of them and do a quick and fast iteration of just a hundred interviews in a day or whatever it is, right? >> And one one of the tricks on that too because you're now successful so you probably pay to have a booth. Some startups at the very beginning can't even afford a booth. So what do they do? They can just show up at the hotel or resort, >> you know, we're only four or five hours from Las Vegas and there's a convention for everything there. You can just go down there, walk the halls, and talk to people. >> You can. Yeah. You don't even need a booth. >> Yeah. So all you budding entrepreneurs out there that are kicking around an idea in your head, go to the trade show that your customer will be at. >> And by the way, there's a trade show for everything. There's a association or trade show for everything. I can look up any business idea and look up who their target market is and sure enough there's three to 10 trade shows coming up in the next six months. >> It is true. >> Okay, so Dustin, before we wrap up, give me your best John memory. >> Like how long you've been around John for 10 years. >> The beh >> I mean you guys play pickle ball. >> There's a fun one. >> Did you get into pickle ball because of me too or not? >> Uh I broke my ankle and had to do something else. Yeah, we love >> you. You actually discouraged me cuz I thought it was just for people that were older, but the medals were that was cool. Like, oh wow, look how many metals. So, uh I I played it with my wife and she destroyed me. So, I like I got to get better. And then by the way, you got you've gotten very good. Hey, thank you very much. >> You got very good. Yeah. Okay. Memory of me. What is that? >> So, we went to us three. We went to the Jazz game. Oh, yeah. We went to the Golden State game. I brought these guys and we were able to get on the floor for a game called Simon Says and there was like 50 people on one side, 50 people on the other and um I was the very first one out by the way which was kind of kind of embarrassing. Uh but John, >> you follow directions. Well, >> I follow I messed up. But John pulled out his phone and asked Jet Chat GBT how to win. Simon says that was a kind of a funny memory. Uh like Steph Curry shooting threes. No, we're looking AI is helping him win. Simon says that that was a good memory. >> That was fun. Yeah. Thank you for doing that. That was cool. Well, that's great. Well, I my I just have a lot of great memories of you. And again viewers and listeners in this episode the steps of lean startup are super important and skipping the steps will cause you to fail and it won't work for you. That's why and also another reason why people don't do it is they think MVP a lot of people heard this word term MVP minimum viable product. They think MVP is all that lean startup is. So oh I'm going to build an MVP. I'm being very lean. I'm doing lean startup when actually MVP as you know is the final last step of lean startup. Before that you're talking to a lot of people before you've written one line of code or set up a new product. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You agree with that? >> I do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, Dustin's path from boot camp to where you're at now is insane. I think we can learn a ton about validation effort, following the methodology, following all the principles that are very discoverable out there on the internet or even here within our realm of startup ignition. Like they're there like you just have to go and put it into practice and you could have a $30 million company. >> That's kind of what Startup does for people. Most of what we teach is out there. There's some unique things we have, but it's the way we put it together and deliver a mechanism for doing it step by step. I think that's the difference. But but I think Dustin took it and did it relentlessly and to the tea and you know the qualities he's like he's now learned that not everybody can be an entrepreneur. You know what the qualities are is what Dustin has. He's >> teachable and coachable like you were saying >> he's tenacious. He's ambitious. He's competitive but in the nicest ways like when you meet and talk with him but like the medals that that's a competitive thing. I like getting medals because it's a competitive thing and you like getting medals and that's just there's things like this. You don't have to be a jerk to be competitive and ambitious, right? And you you you just hit the notes really well and that's why I'm so proud of you and why you become a friend. Dustin, what what's next for corporate traditions? What like where where are we at here? Is there a what's the future? What's what's corporate traditions look like in three to five years? >> What do you hope? Yeah, we're building we're building it to sell. Uh that is that is a goal of ours. If it doesn't, it doesn't. But but we're putting all our effort into making it scalable and sellable. Oh, my definition of scalable, by the way, I wanted to add this. Um this the Dustin Robbins scalable definition. Scalable business is one that you don't ever have to turn down a client. So if clients come in, if you have a 100 clients come in one day, you can on board them. If it's one, if it's a thousand, and we we have that. We can onboard as many clients as we could. Uh a service business, you're like, >> you can't do that. >> I got you this day, uh maybe tomorrow. Like, so we're very scalable. Um we Yeah, we want we want to sell. We want to be in a position to to sell. >> Cool. >> Again, if we don't, we don't. If we do, we do. But that would be an entrepreneurs's goal. >> And when that happens, we're committing you to a part two of this podcast right now today. Well, these two are um they have some options of corporate traditions and they are great mentors for us with corporate traditions. We meet monthly with our with our team. I never brought up our CTO. So, we were doing those things one at a time. >> Brian met uh somebody in his ward and said, "I found the CTO." I'm like, "You just don't find a CTO in your ward." And we found him. Brook Sabin, amazing CTO. uh he built things that were so automated that we never even thought of. But we're at the point where we we needed somebody and he came in he wrote a code that would spit out 800 codes instead of one at a time. Then he built our thing from scratch. So we're we're office Shopify, right? We're building everything from scratch and it's custom now. >> It's so nice. One more John's story. >> Okay. This was I think it was a year uh yeah it's probably 6 months after I've taken Startup Ignition you came in you were talking about how we were like yeah we have you asked about our cash flow and things and was like yeah we have cash flow and I I thought you were going to invest or be a mentor and you're like no you don't need cash go ahead and I thought that was great cuz he could have had 50% of my company like that cuz it was like yes sir whatever you like John was the man like whatever you want sir and and then um after so many years uh we got to a point where we needed some extra help and so you came in a little later and uh you're yeah great we're glad to have you on the team. >> That's what you know if you want to do this as long as I have you don't take advantage of people you just help them. Yeah, but you you just you know and also but that if I would have taken a big chunk at that time could have discouraged what the things you don't want to mess up a company. >> If you need it, you need it. If you don't need it, you don't need it. And just you know, you got to deal with honest good people. And you you're you're you're such a good person. I haven't seen any reason not to say that completely 100% on that. And I want to be the same back to you. And that's what makes for a great relationship. And and a rising tide lifts all boats, right? >> Yeah. and you've made a great rais rising tide and I'm so happy for you and your family, your wife and kids and Brian and his family and everything that's happened to all of you. It's so great. >> Yeah. And who and who's to say whoever's listening to this, this isn't you in the next 3 to 5 years, right? Dustin came through. He latched on to all these principles, implemented them really, really well. And look, we got >> there's ones happening right now like um it's kind of funny. I I hope it's okay I say this. You become an investor in our venture fund, okay? Which is great. And we have companies in there right now that you know came through startup ignition. They didn't they they were great at bootstrapping. So for a year and a half they just bootstrap. Then one day they came and said John I think we need money now and we want you to invest. During that year and a half I didn't push money on them. I didn't try to get you know then and we cut a deal and they're just killing it. >> The fund's going to do really well with that company and that's how it works. >> Yeah. That's awesome. So yeah, to all you listeners and viewers out there, if you enjoyed it, subscribe, comment, come challenge Dustin and John to a game of pickle ball. I'm sure you >> and I will take anybody out. >> Any challengers out there, come hit a paddle around and see. >> Be careful, though. People have challenged us for $100 a game and we haven't lost money yet. >> They Hey, they'll take money bets, guys. Okay, so come on through. Thank you. This is the Startup Ignition podcast with Dustin. Thank you so much, Dustin, for coming through. Thanks for being here. to have you here and great to catch up again even though we see you quite often. But if you enjoy this, like, subscribe, comment again, challenge these guys to a pickle ball game. I'm sure they'll take you up on it. But this has been the Startup Ignition podcast and we are out. Rock bike next rock next rock.